Matrix Games Forums

"4. How to manage pilot fatigue in air groups "

This is not the main reason or the only reason why I think WitP might have taken the power of the computer too far in the process of running a simulation.... but it needs to be said.

What the blazes does a grand strategy title need this level of detail for? Just because my computer can track these details, doesn't mean I have any interest in it doing it. It's like keeping track of how many pairs of dry socks my troops have in War in the East. Hey, if you think that isn't vital to ground troops, you sure have never served in uniform then. It's like keeping track of mail in a grand strategy title. Oh you can bet they consider their mail vital. But eventually the detail level gets a bit nauseating.

When I fire up a wargame, the idea is I am playing a game about war. But the terms war and game need to be equally held accountable. And there is almost zero 'game' in WitP. But I tend to consider games fun, enjoyable and relaxing. There is nothing but work, and tedium in WitP. If you are a workaholic and would rather put in a shift over Christmas, you might like WitP.

Either he want the basic package or the admiral package, its your choice.

ORIGINAL: Pariah

Its Veyron not Weyron. Basically it is a fast expensive car. I understand the analogy all the same.

So, there really is not a way to see if I would like the game without risking almost 100$? That is a bit of a drag.
Maybe one day.

Hi Pariah,

Didn't Matrix recently have a big sale on the game? You may want to check their 'sales bin' to see if it's still reduced. IIRC, it was recently discounted below USD $70.

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
What the blazes does a grand strategy title need this level of detail for? Just because my computer can track these details, doesn't mean I have any interest in it doing it. It's like keeping track of how many pairs of dry socks my troops have in War in the East. Hey, if you think that isn't vital to ground troops, you sure have never served in uniform then. It's like keeping track of mail in a grand strategy title. Oh you can bet they consider their mail vital. But eventually the detail level gets a bit nauseating.

There is nothing but work, and tedium in WitP.

Not true. The detail is immense, to be sure. But extraneous details are extrapolated or homogenized when necessary. For example, there is only a "supply", which simulates AVGas, bullets, clothing, beans, and so forth for troops. The example above is correct in that sometimes tedium or 'clickfests' appear. It's bound to happen in a 3.5 year-long simulation of the war. There are some means of reducing or removing these impediments if one takes the time to learn the game.

But do you not think pilot fatigue is important? Or airframe repair rates? Or hull damage from ship overuse? It is precisely these details that enable one to control the outcome of the war. Their presence and controlability make it the monumental game that it is. Not for everyone, to be sure, but an absolutely immersive and (at times) exciting / terrifying experience.

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
What the blazes does a grand strategy title need this level of detail for? Just because my computer can track these details, doesn't mean I have any interest in it doing it. It's like keeping track of how many pairs of dry socks my troops have in War in the East. Hey, if you think that isn't vital to ground troops, you sure have never served in uniform then. It's like keeping track of mail in a grand strategy title. Oh you can bet they consider their mail vital. But eventually the detail level gets a bit nauseating.

When I fire up a wargame, the idea is I am playing a game about war. But the terms war and game need to be equally held accountable. And there is almost zero 'game' in WitP. But I tend to consider games fun, enjoyable and relaxing. There is nothing but work, and tedium in WitP. If you are a workaholic and would rather put in a shift over Christmas, you might like WitP.

I agree - I played through Uncommon Valor and the smaller battle scenarios of both WITP and WITP:AE to get a grasp on the mechanics and the overall operational/strategic flow, but taking that out to the full game just took too much wrangling with the UI for my taste.

It's a very unique feeling to know what you must do and yet have it outside your grasp by this thick glamour of inefficient communication - like trying to coordinate a multi-pronged assault between divisions relying solely on couriers.

ORIGINAL: Pariah

Or just wait for the members who have been so helpful with my other questions....[8|]

There yah go you're getting the gist of things here. Good comeback lol

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

What the blazes does a grand strategy title need this level of detail for?

warspite1

It probably doesn't NEED it, but that's not the point is it? Have a look in on the WITP-AE forum and you will see the sheer number of dedicated, addicted converts to the cause. This surely suggests that level of detail scratches a lot of itches and appeals to a great many gamers. Its horses for courses.

Personally I could not get on with it, but I have great respect for those that do.

Of course I like to think that the reason I do not get on with this game is just the type of complexity it features and not the level of complexity (after all, I love WIF). However, that is probably not quite true as it has been pointed out to me, by one who knows everything, that the real reason I do not get on with WITP-AE is because I hang out in the General Discussion forum and am thus, something of a thicky.....[8|]

the main difference between WITP and AE is that in WITP you have to decide from which of the 50 shades of grey you want to paint your ships in before they are launched.

In AE , you have to remember to order the paint as well.

ORIGINAL: ezz

the main difference between WITP and AE is that in WITP you have to decide from which of the 50 shades of grey you want to paint your ships in before they are launched.

In AE , you have to remember to order the paint as well.

How is that fun?

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
What the blazes does a grand strategy title need this level of detail for? Just because my computer can track these details, doesn't mean I have any interest in it doing it. It's like keeping track of how many pairs of dry socks my troops have in War in the East. Hey, if you think that isn't vital to ground troops, you sure have never served in uniform then. It's like keeping track of mail in a grand strategy title. Oh you can bet they consider their mail vital. But eventually the detail level gets a bit nauseating.

There is nothing but work, and tedium in WitP.

Not true. The detail is immense, to be sure. But extraneous details are extrapolated or homogenized when necessary. For example, there is only a "supply", which simulates AVGas, bullets, clothing, beans, and so forth for troops. The example above is correct in that sometimes tedium or 'clickfests' appear. It's bound to happen in a 3.5 year-long simulation of the war. There are some means of reducing or removing these impediments if one takes the time to learn the game.

But do you not think pilot fatigue is important? Or airframe repair rates? Or hull damage from ship overuse? It is precisely these details that enable one to control the outcome of the war. Their presence and controlability make it the monumental game that it is. Not for everyone, to be sure, but an absolutely immersive and (at times) exciting / terrifying experience.

Agree with Chickenboy on all points.

Personally I wouldn't waste my money on WITP at this point.
AE was given a huge facelift by dedicated fans of the game playing huge roles on the development side.
For my money it's the best game ever created and 5 years in is still receiving support
to improve the product.

That my friends is what you call return for your gaming dollar.

Well, it would be great to be able to rent a key from Matrix for a month or two! That way people who are apprehensive about buying it, cant try it first. $60 - $80 is a high price to pay for a game. I am sure it is worth it to those who enjoy it (if not more)
I know that if I spent that amount on a game and did not like it, it would make me uneasy to ever make that big of a jump again. i don't know how feasible it would be to allow the temporary rental of keys would be. But, I feel it would benefit both sides of the financial equation.

ORIGINAL: Pariah

ORIGINAL: ezz

the main difference between WITP and AE is that in WITP you have to decide from which of the 50 shades of grey you want to paint your ships in before they are launched.

In AE , you have to remember to order the paint as well.

How is that fun?

warspite1

It isn't for everyone, but clearly there are enough gamers for whom the logistical aspects of war are fun and a challenge. The WITP-AE forum remains one of the most - if not the most - active forum here.

I wish they would make a grand TACTICAL game of the Pacific War or something. I like lotsa units but I don't want each one to represent a division or corp. Command Ops would be great for a Pacific land based tactical game. If he can bring that engine down to at least platoon levels. Even Panzer Command would be fun in that theater.

If someone could just take the turn based aspect of the Total War series and marry it up with Norbsofts combat engine (no not formed lines like in the civilwars or napoleonics) but more of command decision type game where the ai will still control your units even if you aren't around to do it or forget about them. Nothing ticks me off more than a unit that's getting pelted just stand there and do nothing until the player arrives for input. Command decision games are the way to play now that we can. That's why I enjoy Norbsoft's Civilwar games, Command Ops and Spartan/Troy so much now.

Are there anymore type games like those 3 out there? If only the Total War engine had an ai like these three. Need more games where the ai actually can battle itself and you just give or change orders as you see fit or need to.

Well i wasted alot on Elder Scrolls Online, trying to reserved my character name before they take it. So that failed, the game itself failed due lack of realism compare to any other ESSeries. I played like a week and quit. A week ago i asked some questions in the forum for details to see if Zenimax or w/e improve the game any, some say yes and no, then fifthteen minutes i was booted from the forum and cant get back in. After doing some research, though about give it another try and for three days of playing it, gotta say it really suck. So many glitches and bugs in that game. But the graphics is nice, the rest is craps compare to World of Warcraft and Everquest II. So i wasted 95 bucks on that garbages and wont happen again.

Its a gamble unless they have demo or free trials, just have to do some research and hopefully you will like it. So they wont refund your money, dont take that for granted.

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
I wish they would make a grand TACTICAL game of the Pacific War or something.

http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/Products/S ... udFew.html

http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/Products/S ... acwar.html

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
I wish they would make a grand TACTICAL game of the Pacific War or something.

http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/Products/S ... udFew.html

http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/Products/S ... acwar.html

Cool, never seen this before, thanks for sharing with us

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
I wish they would make a grand TACTICAL game of the Pacific War or something.

http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/Products/S ... udFew.html

http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/Products/S ... acwar.html

Thanks gradenko, I already have those and they are great squad level games. [:)]

You may have just saved me from getting ES online and wasting money. If it is nothing like the others, I do not want it. I am a fan of the series as far back as Morrowwind.

ORIGINAL: Pariah

$60 - $80 is a high price to pay for a game.I am sure it is worth it to those who enjoy it (if not more)

Pariah,

Here is the scoop on the cost of WITPAE.

You need to really think of WITPAE as a “bundle”.

There are 2 main campaign games that can be tweaked into 4 variations.
For practical purposes Two separate games.The allied side and the Japanese side.

The mechanics are the same but trust me the Japanese side is a completely different game strategy wise.
I know because I’ve played both sides. I have 3 college degrees and the Japanese side is almost too complex for me to handle. I’m talking advanced project management, cost benefit analysis, and industrial production management. There is a special third party utility called tracker available that sorts configurable categories into around 22 different parameters.

There are forum posts from players who have used advanced mathematics to calculate port capacity and ship load and offload times. Math formulas are embedded in the manual. Know of many games like that?

When you see a war game where engineering is sometimes more important than combat you know it's a serious war game.

Then you have the submarine game.
American, British, Dutch and Japanese subs comprising about 30 different classes of submarines.
Subs that can patrol and loiter and return to port to rearm and refuel on their own.
Sub commanders that make decisions to attack with torpedoes or surface and use deck guns on their own.
Subs that can lay mines
Subs that can transport troops and supplies.
Japanese Subs that can launch float planes for search.
Midget subs
Midget sub carriers.
All this in the entire Pacific theater at 40 NM per hex.

Where in the game universe are you going to go to get a very good and detailed strategic Pacific War submarine game that covers all nationalities in the entire geographical theater? The answer is nowhere else.

Currently there are three different map styles available with information configurable for the user.

Then you have the short scenarios about 7 official and God knows how many short mods.

Then you have what I call the big intense mods,like DaBabes. Currently about 14 games for that one alone.

Then you have the editor so you can configure the game your way.

All I’ve said above just barely scratches the surface of WITPAE.
I have not covered all the naval or the air and land forces.

So for a measly $79.99 you can get about 30 games in this one package."Bundle"
That’s around $2.60 per game. Only, If you like WW2 in the Pacific.

But here is the straight of it. WITPAE is a serious adult game.
This game is an acquired taste. If you don’t acquire the taste for it, it’s not for you.
It takes real brain work..
It can be very hard to learn.
It can be boring and tedious and frustrating just like the real military (I’m former Navy)
This is one of the reasons I like it.

Also, this game is not for children. In fact WITPAE weeds out children very fast. Just like in the adult world.
There are children on the forum.I know, I’ve seen them throw tantrums on the WITPAE forum because they had to read and understand something complex in the manual or because the game did not give them instant gratification.Or because they have played so many children’s war games that they don’t understand how modern industrial war works on the strategic level.

The great thing about the WITPAE forum is that I have not seen any children there in a very long time.
The other factor, as you have indicated,is that it costs a lot of money. That weeds out children and it’s a good thing, children would not understand it anyway.

Of course there are not any children on this thread.

All that said, I have nothing against children. In fact I love all children. I read their posts and sometimes I play their games for fun.

Then I go back to serious war games. Being former military, I’ve served on combat ships and chewed dirt with the marines. In other words, I have acquired the taste for serious adult war games.

K

[/b]

I would echo that Uncommon Valor gives you a bit of the feel, the granularity of the WitPAE and would suffice as a demo before dropping the dollar on the main game.
The problem with that is the lack of support/other players to help with the learning curve and you risk give up on both games from not "getting it".

Some people are turned off by the lack of flash and graphics. I like it as it gives me the feel of the era, trying to listen to radio and newspaper reports (with all their errors).

Controlling more than a thousand ships, land units, air units and trying to keep them all reinforced, in supply and moving toward the right objection IS a daunting task - more like work than play unless you immerse your mind into that world. Then it becomes one of the most complex of puzzles to solve.

Good luck to the OP in either decision.