Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

+1 re: Marcus
One of the hard things to do in the first year of game time is resist the urge to "do something" with the small forces you have available. Put them into defending your essential bases and wait until you get a credible carrier force (numbers, better planes and experience) to take on invasions of his perimeter.

Well I am not a fan of doing nothing in 1942 but I think Marcus Island will not good well. If its empty you will take it but if its defended I think you will find atolls take a look of work to take out. I would look for areas where you can engage him in low level attrition make him ship fuel and supplies to the front focus him on an area and then pounce elsewhere.

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

So looking some more it seems like it's that line, un-spun. That line is affected by the LCUs in the base. It's the same line used by the auto-convoy system I think.

Yes, that's what I meant. The "base" required could be something like 1500, but if you set it to require 5000 extra, it will attempt to stockpile 19500 supplies before shipping any out. However, anything over 3000 would meet the "base" x2 requirement. If you pay attention, you'll notice that yellow !'s only appear over locations that do not come up to this "base" x2 requirement.

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
So if he's got 20,000+ in the base and is still under x2, he can march units outside until the Supply Required number declines enough for 20,000 to be x2. Right?

I would assume so, however the LCUs will take some supply out with them, yeah?

First, ME?! Pay attention?! [:)] I doan need no steenkin' yellow marks!

Second, the LCUs would take their internal, organic supply with them, and then draw while out in the field. The 'Yes' on stockpile only prevents a base from sending to another base(s). But the draw would be very low unless there was combat.

But would you strip a base of defenders to get planes out? Especially when they're undamaged and can be Withdrawn? Not sure I would.

If BM has 20,000+ and it's still less than x2, he might need to do a lot of marching out.

I'd probably just withdraw them if I could do so without losing the planes. Waiting 60 days for them to hit the pools is fine with me.

And if they're Hurri-b's, well...you get so many B and C models that I really don't care much about the earlier ones. I want to say that in late '42 I had 150 each of B and C in each of my Allied games.

Hey, thanks for all the replies and help!

There is a yellow question mark over Chengtu and there is a very strong garrison there at the moment. Just under the stacking limit about 4000+ AV. Marching out is something that can easily be done. Hopefully it works!

Marcus Island:
I turned the transports around but still bombarded the island, damaged about 10 kates, destroyed 1 and got a hit on a PB. Thinking about sending the CVE forward a little, try and port/naval strike and then turn tail.

Get rid of the yellow Q mark and you're good. If you want to do the arithmetic you can look at each LCU screen and figure out how many you have to march out.

Thanks for your help Mr Moose!

ORIGINAL: BattleMoose

Hey, thanks for all the replies and help!

There is a yellow question mark over Chengtu and there is a very strong garrison there at the moment. Just under the stacking limit about 4000+ AV. Marching out is something that can easily be done. Hopefully it works!

Marcus Island:
I turned the transports around but still bombarded the island, damaged about 10 kates, destroyed 1 and got a hit on a PB. Thinking about sending the CVE forward a little, try and port/naval strike and then turn tail.

If a CA, 4 DD and a DMS managed to damage 10 Kates, he has a lot more than that there. If you do not have a lot of CVEs with fighters to provide good CAP, and enough bombers to really hit the base hard, it isn't worth risking a strike.
The way I read your force composition you only have a single CVE? Dead meat now that you stirred up the hornet's nest.

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: BattleMoose

Hey, thanks for all the replies and help!

There is a yellow question mark over Chengtu and there is a very strong garrison there at the moment. Just under the stacking limit about 4000+ AV. Marching out is something that can easily be done. Hopefully it works!

Marcus Island:
I turned the transports around but still bombarded the island, damaged about 10 kates, destroyed 1 and got a hit on a PB. Thinking about sending the CVE forward a little, try and port/naval strike and then turn tail.

If a CA, 4 DD and a DMS managed to damage 10 Kates, he has a lot more than that there. If you do not have a lot of CVEs with fighters to provide good CAP, and enough bombers to really hit the base hard, it isn't worth risking a strike.
The way I read your force composition you only have a single CVE? Dead meat now that you stirred up the hornet's nest.

Yeah, I expect you are right. Discretion will be the better part of valour today. Time to turn tail. He had the opportunity to launch an airstrike the last turn but there wasn't one. Perhaps the orders weren't there, the forces were spotted. One of the strategic objectives was to stir up the hornets nest, so, going to count it as a win and go back to Adak.

First assault on Chungking, went amazing!

Ground combat at Chungking (76,45)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 243304 troops, 2364 guns, 1325 vehicles, Assault Value = 7625

Defending force 204196 troops, 740 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 4828

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 5

Japanese adjusted assault: 1578

Allied adjusted defense: 9837

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 6 (fort level 5)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), leaders(+), experience(-)
Attacker: disruption(-)

Japanese ground losses:
73211 casualties reported
Squads: 834 destroyed, 4058 disabled
Non Combat: 116 destroyed, 468 disabled
Engineers: 99 destroyed, 352 disabled
Guns lost 636 (144 destroyed, 492 disabled)
Vehicles lost 134 (26 destroyed, 108 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
9612 casualties reported
Squads: 66 destroyed, 638 disabled
Non Combat: 80 destroyed, 430 disabled
Engineers: 12 destroyed, 40 disabled
Guns lost 135 (14 destroyed, 121 disabled)
Units destroyed 1

My LCU are in fairly good shape, disruption varying between 5 and 20. Thinking about counter attacking? His forces must be trashed?


Cengtu Drop Tank Issue:

I moved out a heap of units, required draw is 8095. Supply in Chengtu plummeted to 16091! So just shy of X2. Lost the yellow exclamation point and drop tanks are still not available. The units that moved out, fairly badly overstacked the hex and many units have lost a lot of supply. So from the 4k lost in Chengtu and the LCUs losing supply too, lost a fair bit.

Next turn, more units will leave Chengtu into a different hex, hopefully that will bring me to the X2 requirement, or I am going to run out of fuel to run the HI.

About the counterattack at Chungking ... the Chinese units have NO heavy weapons so their AV is considered "soft". The Japanese still have lots of heavy guns and even if none of their disabled squads recovers in time for next turn, they still have about 3000 raw AV.
The Japanese also have experience and morale on their side and if you attack they have the terrain advantage plus any field forts they have been able to build.
I use 10:1 as a guideline for when the Chinese raw AV is high enough to have much chance of success.
That said, an attack now will destroy some more IJA squads and they are worth more VPs than the Chinese ones - 4:1 I believe.

I chose discretion and not to counter attack and Chungking.

Supplies at Chengtu were 7800 and required at 4000 so just short again. Was a good idea but didn't work, sending all the units back to fortress Chengtu. He is raiding Chengtu with Tojos last turn,he lost 9 and I lost 16 of various airframes, hawks, cobras, and hurris. Going to try and deplete the units of airframes and withdraw them.

2:1

12 to 6

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

2:1

12 to 6

Not sure what you are getting at here Moose? I agree that 2:1 is reasonable odds in most match-ups, but I am arguing that the Chinese lack of heavy weapons, leadership, morale and experience makes success impossible at 2:1 and unlikely until nearly 10:1.
Would be happy to hear others' take on the situation though. I have found many times what I concluded during my play is not always what is going on!

ORIGINAL: BattleMoose

I chose discretion and not to counter attack and Chungking.

Supplies at Chengtu were 7800 and required at 4000 so just short again. Was a good idea but didn't work, sending all the units back to fortress Chengtu. He is raiding Chengtu with Tojos last turn,he lost 9 and I lost 16 of various airframes, hawks, cobras, and hurris. Going to try and deplete the units of airframes and withdraw them.

I think you chose well here as the Chinese are at quite a disadvantage. He attacked you in favorable terrain. The tables would be turned if you attacked him inside the city. It is a city hex isnt it?

He lost over 3 divisions worth of men and equipment. Bravo!! It is not so much the troops he lost but the supplies it will take to replace them.

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

2:1

12 to 6

Not sure what you are getting at here Moose? I agree that 2:1 is reasonable odds in most match-ups, but I am arguing that the Chinese lack of heavy weapons, leadership, morale and experience makes success impossible at 2:1 and unlikely until nearly 10:1.
Would be happy to hear others' take on the situation though. I have found many times what I concluded during my play is not always what is going on!

What he means is that IJ squads are worth twice what Chinese squads are worth. 12 Chinese devices destroyed = 1 VP. 6 destroyed IJ devices = 1 VP.

I don't think you need 10:1. There are more factors than raw AV - experience, morale, supply, disruption...terrain... Add it all up and take your best guess as to the result, and order accordingly.

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

ORIGINAL: BattleMoose

I chose discretion and not to counter attack and Chungking.

Supplies at Chengtu were 7800 and required at 4000 so just short again. Was a good idea but didn't work, sending all the units back to fortress Chengtu. He is raiding Chengtu with Tojos last turn,he lost 9 and I lost 16 of various airframes, hawks, cobras, and hurris. Going to try and deplete the units of airframes and withdraw them.

I think you chose well here as the Chinese are at quite a disadvantage. He attacked you in favorable terrain. The tables would be turned if you attacked him inside the city. It is a city hex isnt it?

He lost over 3 divisions worth of men and equipment. Bravo!! It is not so much the troops he lost but the supplies it will take to replace them.

Unfortunately for our plucky Allied player, it doesn't cost supply to repair disabled devices (to my knowledge) - only replace destroyed devices. Not many devices were destroyed, it seems. From a Japanese perspective, this is actually a pretty good result. The most important bits: forts dropped to 5, and not many devices destroyed. Not losing devices means that the accumulated XP from the attack isn't watered down by taking replacements. That's more important than the supply factor, in my opinion. At least in China where the IJ player can have as much supply as he wants with relative ease.

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

ORIGINAL: BattleMoose

I chose discretion and not to counter attack and Chungking.

Supplies at Chengtu were 7800 and required at 4000 so just short again. Was a good idea but didn't work, sending all the units back to fortress Chengtu. He is raiding Chengtu with Tojos last turn,he lost 9 and I lost 16 of various airframes, hawks, cobras, and hurris. Going to try and deplete the units of airframes and withdraw them.

I think you chose well here as the Chinese are at quite a disadvantage. He attacked you in favorable terrain. The tables would be turned if you attacked him inside the city. It is a city hex isnt it?

He lost over 3 divisions worth of men and equipment. Bravo!! It is not so much the troops he lost but the supplies it will take to replace them.

Unfortunately for our plucky Allied player, it doesn't cost supply to repair disabled devices (to my knowledge) - only replace destroyed devices. Not many devices were destroyed, it seems. From a Japanese perspective, this is actually a pretty good result. The most important bits: forts dropped to 5, and not many devices destroyed. Not losing devices means that the accumulated XP from the attack isn't watered down by taking replacements. That's more important than the supply factor, in my opinion. At least in China where the IJ player can have as much supply as he wants with relative ease.

I always thought it did, no? [&:]

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

ORIGINAL: BattleMoose

I chose discretion and not to counter attack and Chungking.

Supplies at Chengtu were 7800 and required at 4000 so just short again. Was a good idea but didn't work, sending all the units back to fortress Chengtu. He is raiding Chengtu with Tojos last turn,he lost 9 and I lost 16 of various airframes, hawks, cobras, and hurris. Going to try and deplete the units of airframes and withdraw them.

I think you chose well here as the Chinese are at quite a disadvantage. He attacked you in favorable terrain. The tables would be turned if you attacked him inside the city. It is a city hex isnt it?

He lost over 3 divisions worth of men and equipment. Bravo!! It is not so much the troops he lost but the supplies it will take to replace them.

+1

Wise not to counter attack there. Sometimes it pays, but usually in open terrain with little or no Imperial air attacks supporting their ground troops. The Chinese units are better on defense than on offense.

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Unfortunately for our plucky Allied player, it doesn't cost supply to repair disabled devices (to my knowledge) - only replace destroyed devices. Not many devices were destroyed, it seems. From a Japanese perspective, this is actually a pretty good result. The most important bits: forts dropped to 5, and not many devices destroyed. Not losing devices means that the accumulated XP from the attack isn't watered down by taking replacements. That's more important than the supply factor, in my opinion. At least in China where the IJ player can have as much supply as he wants with relative ease.

I always thought it did, no? [&:]

I feel like I looked it up not so long ago. I remember Obvert being in that thread also. I'll try to find it and edit the info in to this post.

I seem to recall that there is no mention of a cost to repair devices - simply that LCUs need to have supply on hand to repair them. No supply, no repairs, but that doesn't mean that supplies are deducted to repair the device... subtle distinction.

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Unfortunately for our plucky Allied player, it doesn't cost supply to repair disabled devices (to my knowledge) - only replace destroyed devices. Not many devices were destroyed, it seems. From a Japanese perspective, this is actually a pretty good result. The most important bits: forts dropped to 5, and not many devices destroyed. Not losing devices means that the accumulated XP from the attack isn't watered down by taking replacements. That's more important than the supply factor, in my opinion. At least in China where the IJ player can have as much supply as he wants with relative ease.

I always thought it did, no? [&:]

I feel like I looked it up not so long ago. I remember Obvert being in that thread also. I'll try to find it and edit the info in to this post.

I seem to recall that there is no mention of a cost to repair devices - simply that LCUs need to have supply on hand to repair them. No supply, no repairs, but that doesn't mean that supplies are deducted to repair the device... subtle distinction.

Unable to find it in the manual. [:(]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: witpqs


I always thought it did, no? [&:]

I feel like I looked it up not so long ago. I remember Obvert being in that thread also. I'll try to find it and edit the info in to this post.

I seem to recall that there is no mention of a cost to repair devices - simply that LCUs need to have supply on hand to repair them. No supply, no repairs, but that doesn't mean that supplies are deducted to repair the device... subtle distinction.

Unable to find it in the manual. [:(]

Same, which combined with my in-game experience (I have not looked at it very closely, but units with disabled devices don't appear to use extra supply while repairing) leads me to believe that there isn't a cost to repair. You just need to be "in supply" and pass a check. Going to see if I can find any data in Tracker, but I'm doubtful.

Having trouble finding that thread, too.

Edit: I did find this thread, where Alfred says units consume more supply while recovering from disablements - tm.asp?m=3428992#

No idea how to quantify that, though... not without careful attention while sandboxing.