Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:24 pm**

ORIGINAL: tevans6220
One other thing I'd love for somebody to explain. Before digital downloads people were paying the equivalent of what is now being charged for digital downloads. Somewhere between $40 and $80. Everything going digital was supposed to be cheaper. Cheaper for who though? Used to be you got a decent manual with a game too. Now you have to pay extra for what you used to get as part of the whole physical package. And you can only get that physical package if you're willing to pay more. If you think about it, we've all been duped. That's not a personal attack against Matrix. Just an observation of the software industry in general.

Prices change for a lot of reasons. One may be the cost of development increasing, without the equivalent increase in sales to cover the expenses. Direct price comparison over large time periods makes little sense really, especially in a fast moving market.

At least digital downloads often sell for less than physical copies when retail sales isn't a major source of revenue, somewhat proving the point made in the past. But what those prices are at a certain point in time is another matter. And however you look at it it's not as if most public game developers are turning amazing profits.

Posted: **Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:25 pm**

Well, to be fair my issue is that I'm a college student, and paying my way through...so disposable income is an issue. That's not being cheap, that's just real life.

You all seem very proud of the game, and its predecessors and clearly you've had great experiences with Gary Grigsby's games. And that's awesome - it really is, because you rarely hear such loyalty on gaming forums where overwhelming the complainers and malcontents seem to hang out.

It's just...I mean come on guys. Look at it from this perspective: New comer to the series, has no way to judge how good an extremely expensive and of course complex game will be without a demo. All you get are maybe some YouTube videos or one of the six or seven screenshots on the main page. You all have played Gary Grigsby games before and apparently love them, but I don't have that assurance. I get to buy one thing for myself for Christmas this year. Starting to see now?

This isn't the place, nor is the average forum goer the person to be arguing over pricing policy with. I've put out my opinion and, I think it's a valid one - niche games remain niche games if you write them off as niches.

Now that said... something happened which will allow me to buy the game afterall. I'm interested in seeing just how it lives up to the praise I've seen here.

Posted: **Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:38 pm**

Any game that comes with a manual with 300+ pages, a fairly lengthy player's handbook and tutorial videos is likely to remain a niche product no matter the price point. Plus it's not as if everything else stays the same with more sales. Support will cost more for instance.

And then there's the long term to consider. A lot of the people who would jump on the wagon at a lower price wont be repeat customers, and at that point it's probably too late to raise the price to cover for this.

Posted: **Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:09 pm**

ORIGINAL: Fintilgin
I think this is a self-fulfilling prophecy to some extent. If you price the game so vastly outside what the rest of the market does you're pretty much guaranteeing that no one outside the niche will try it and the niche will never grow.

I can see how you could read it that way, but that's not what I meant. A niche can be quite large, it's just not the entire market. Actually, we've been growing the niche and this part of the market for years and we ourselves share the same interest in these games that our customers do. We've also priced them down periodically for sales and promotions over many years so we have a fair amount of information regarding the demand and sales at each price point.

It's not about getting "something for free" or "value" or whatever, it's about the fact that on other forums I've posted on and other people I've talked to, I'll see plenty of people who are intrigued and interested in these games but laugh and walk away when they see the price. It frustrates me to think that the wargaming hobby is actively pricing out new 'converts' and (apparently) willfully keeping itself niche. I think there are plenty of people who would be interested in stepping 'up' from games like Panzer Corps or HoI, but asking for so much more money then other games in the market is just shooting yourself in the foot.

You can trust that we are and will continue to try to get these out to as many people as possible. We also would like those folks who are intrigued to take a look and give it a try. However, there are certain problems with mainstream pricing strategy as well which are not a good fit for any kind of niche game.

Regards,

- Erik

Posted: **Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:15 pm**

ORIGINAL: tevans6220
One other thing I'd love for somebody to explain. Before digital downloads people were paying the equivalent of what is now being charged for digital downloads. Somewhere between $40 and $80. Everything going digital was supposed to be cheaper. Cheaper for who though? Used to be you got a decent manual with a game too. Now you have to pay extra for what you used to get as part of the whole physical package. And you can only get that physical package if you're willing to pay more. If you think about it, we've all been duped. That's not a personal attack against Matrix. Just an observation of the software industry in general.

I think it's worth also keeping inflation in mind. If the games today cost about the same as they cost you ten years ago, that means they've actually gotten less expensive.

FYI, I paid something like $80 for the original War in Russia for my Apple II some thirty plus years ago, with a much, much smaller and thinner softcover manual and two floppy disks and a map. With inflation, that would be something like $200 now I'd guess.

Regards,

- Erik

Posted: **Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:18 pm**

ORIGINAL: raventhefuhrer
Well, to be fair my issue is that I'm a college student, and paying my way through...so disposable income is an issue. That's not being cheap, that's just real life.

I also want to add to this thread that I absolutely respect each customer's decision to buy or not buy. I wish everyone could afford this price point, but I realize some cannot. We do run promotions eventually on all our games to give folks on a budget a better price point and to encourage those on the fence to give our more hard core wargames a try.

We have also been expanding our customer base each year and we'll continue to do our best to get our developers' games into the hands of as many people as we can while maximizing their returns so that they can keep making these games for years to come.

It's just...I mean come on guys. Look at it from this perspective: New comer to the series, has no way to judge how good an extremely expensive and of course complex game will be without a demo. All you get are maybe some YouTube videos or one of the six or seven screenshots on the main page. You all have played Gary Grigsby games before and apparently love them, but I don't have that assurance. I get to buy one thing for myself for Christmas this year. Starting to see now?

Outside of price, what would be your recommendation for how we help a customer like you make up his mind?

I'm very glad to hear that you will be able to give WITW a try after all. I hope you enjoy it!

Regards,

- Erik

Posted: **Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:39 pm**

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

One other thing I'd love for somebody to explain. Before digital downloads people were paying the equivalent of what is now being charged for digital downloads. Somewhere between $40 and $80. Everything going digital was supposed to be cheaper. Cheaper for who though? Used to be you got a decent manual with a game too. Now you have to pay extra for what you used to get as part of the whole physical package. And you can only get that physical package if you're willing to pay more. If you think about it, we've all been duped. That's not a personal attack against Matrix. Just an observation of the software industry in general.

No, we're not being duped. And yes, digital is cheaper. You're going to pay more for the physical copy and a nice printed manual. (And printing nice manuals in hard cover is not cheap.)

Prices change for many reasons. I paid $60 for Carriers at War for the C64 back in the 80s. Cheaper now.

Back in the day, you could buy SPI's WiTP board game for $40-50. DG sells their newer version for $420. Thus why I bought WitP and AE.

Posted: **Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:38 pm**

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

No, we're not being duped. And yes, digital is cheaper. You're going to pay more for the physical copy and a nice printed manual. (And printing nice manuals in hard cover is not cheap.)

Prices change for many reasons. I paid $60 for Carriers at War for the C64 back in the 80s. Cheaper now.

Back in the day, you could buy SPI's WiTP board game for $40-50. DG sells their newer version for $420. Thus why I bought WitP and AE.

Sure digital is cheaper compared to a physical copy but when the software industry first started pushing digital sales and distribution one of their big selling points was the savings that would be passed on to the customer. What savings? We're now paying equivalent prices for digital distribution that we were charged for a a physical product and a physical product complete with a manual costs even more. Used to be you got manuals with your product along with maps. And if you complain about it some publishers bring up things like inflation or the overhead costs of providing digital distribution. That's my point. Physical copies of games used to cost $40 to $80 and surely cost way more to produce. They came with manuals and some were manuals were thick books that you could take to the bathroom with you. Now it's all digital unless you want to pay more. You can't compare the price of boardgames either. A board game, if you take care of it, will last a lifetime the same as a book. Software has a limited shelf life. The board game or book that I can pull off a shelf in 20 years will far outlast any piece of software that I buy within the next year.

Posted: **Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:54 pm**

As Erik stated, when you factor in inflation, prices have dropped. In the 80s were were selling most wargames for $60, while War in Russia, our first "monster game" was $80. In the 90s it's true that some "mass market" wargamers like Steel Panthers and Panzer General may have come down to $50, but IIRC most of the serious wargames were still $60 (was Pac War $70, can't remember?). Here we are 20 years later. I think my Taco Bell fix has doubled in price in that time. Digital has made things cheaper (in inflation adjusted dollars).

Posted: **Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:58 pm**

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

No, we're not being duped. And yes, digital is cheaper. You're going to pay more for the physical copy and a nice printed manual. (And printing nice manuals in hard cover is not cheap.)

Prices change for many reasons. I paid $60 for Carriers at War for the C64 back in the 80s. Cheaper now.

Back in the day, you could buy SPI's WiTP board game for $40-50. DG sells their newer version for $420. Thus why I bought WitP and AE.

Sure digital is cheaper compared to a physical copy but when the software industry first started pushing digital sales and distribution one of their big selling points was the savings that would be passed on to the customer. What savings? We're now paying equivalent

Your complaint would only have merit if the digital and physical were the same price. They are not. IIRC, you buy the physical, you can *still* get the digital. So you can start playing the same day.

Would you rather walk into a retail store and buy Chandler's Campaigns of Napoleon for over $110 or the Kindle d/l edition for $65? I don't know what you're expecting, but $80 for this WiTW is cheap for what you get.

As for the "limited" shelf life of software, how so? I'm playing SSI's Imperialism 2 that I bought in 1999. Runs just fine on Win 7 with no fiddling. With Dosbox or Amiga emulation software I can still play my TIE Fighter Collectors CD. Action Stations!, Annals of Rome, (There's an old one. 1988)

Not very limited there.

Posted: **Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:59 pm**

Well Atari 2600 games in 1977 cost $30 and with a 260% inflation increase up to 2013, games are actually cheaper than they were then. And there's no comparison between these games and Atari 8-bits. Sure they were bleeding edge at the time, but the content and documentation, not even considering the modding abilities of today's titles, doesn't even come close.

I'd say while today's games are not within everyone's budget, IMO, they are a great deal when it is a title that you can spend many hours enjoying.

Posted: **Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:27 am**

Off topic: Nice game tonight, MR.

Posted: **Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:32 am**

ORIGINAL: H Gilmer

Off topic: Nice game tonight, MR.

Good Game. Dang that 'Bama defensive line is big and tough.

Posted: **Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:32 am**

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Outside of price, what would be your recommendation for how we help a customer like you make up his mind?

I'm very glad to hear that you will be able to give WITW a try after all. I hope you enjoy it!

Regards,

- Erik

Well, the problem you have is what a lot of 'deep' games have. Namely, what's best about your game is impossible, or at least very difficult to convey through something like screenshots or a brief video. If I see the newest Call of Duty, or some fancy new WW2 shooter game I can hear the music, see the cool graphics, the frantic action - gimmie gimmie gimmie! What a game like that has to offer comes across right away, and if you're into that sort of thing that's great and you can pick it up.

But what's Gary Grigsby's War in the West? It's a nice map with little squares on it. And it's really expensive. That's basically all an outsider looking in can see at a glance, and as someone with no past history with the series, that's not a lot to go on. I mention this only because one recurring theme I've seen in posters in this thread is how great these games are and how much of a master Gary Grigsby is...and that's great if you're familiar with the series but to a neophyte it's like '...okay...'

So what can you do?

1) More pictures - I would post fifty screenshots or more - anything you can find, and pictures with information. You only need one or two of these: (INSERT GENERIC STRATEGIC MAP PICTURE - because I can't post links) What you really want are these: (INSERT PICTURE OF 4th CA ARMOURED DIVISION STAT SHEET w/ Lt. GENERAL HENRY CRERAR PICTURE) full of information, or menus that show different parts of the game. Take a picture of some obscure Polish battalion in Italy, with a nice colored picture of their commander. 'Holy crap! Is that a Slovakian brigade?' Or Heinz Guderian at the head of an Armeegruppe shattering the Western Allies. Or more stuff like this: (INSERT PICTURE OF AIR WAR INTERFACE) pretty color pictured of an Me262, tons of stats, 'holy ----- look at all those buttons. The air war in this game must be really intricate and not just an afterthought'. If you've got a complex game and you're proud of it, then show it in the screenshots - that has a charm all its own, and an appeal to people like me.

This is pornography for your target audience, and speaking for myself seeing those sorts of things would engage me immediately.

2) A Working Demo - Either in the form of a free scenario that anyone can download (just a handful of turns), or an actual demo. That way people can look at the game, touch it, try it, click on all the cool buttons and decide for themselves. It's less of a leap of faith.

3) Manual - Matrix Game's manuals are great. You should have a link to your's, in its full and unabridged edition, posted right next to the 'Buy Now!' link in the store. All I've been able to find so far is a 'preview' posted on the forums here.

One last thing. It's worth noting that the only reason I'm here is because I saw another Matrix Games title (Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm) on Steam, discounted to a very reasonable price. Had it not been for that, I'd never have heard of Matrix Games, or Gary Grigsby, or these forums. Food for thought. Which isn't to say you need to go put your game on Steam, but I think there's probably a younger generation of Wargamers like myself who are a bit of an untapped market. 20 somethings in college, or just starting out.

To be specific, I found Flashpoint Campaigns on Steam, bought it, enjoyed it. Three of my friends (so far) at least have bought it now too. Unfortunately WitW won't be as easy to sell by word of mouth due to sticker shock, but that's a separate issue I guess.

Posted: **Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:33 am**

I seem to remember most games costing $50 in late 80s. I will admit that price point is a big reason why I do not have more games from matrix. Higher price, then a lot of the games were just too far behind the technological curve in resolution support.

Posted: **Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:53 am**

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
I think it's worth also keeping inflation in mind. If the games today cost about the same as they cost you ten years ago, that means they've actually gotten less expensive.

FYI, I paid something like $80 for the original War in Russia for my Apple II some thirty plus years ago, with a much, much smaller and thinner softcover manual and two floppy disks and a map. With inflation, that would be something like $200 now I'd guess.

Regards,

- Erik

I think you're missing my point. The best example I can give of what I'm talking about is ebooks. I just bought some books for my father for Christmas and I paid $25 a piece for them. The whole set cost me around $125. I bought the same set of digital books for my tablet for less than $50. They didn't use inflation as a reason to keep prices on digital distribution high. If it can work that way for books, why not software? I love you guys but anytime somebody complains about pricing the two things that always come up are inflation and niche market. It's a niche market because you price yourself out of regular markets. Young people that may be interested in what you're selling can't afford it. Digital distribution was supposed to make things cheaper for everybody. But it's not because Software publishers don't pass the savings on to the consumer. Tell me something. Why would anybody who remembers what it was like to get a physical copy of software with maps and a good thick manual for $40 to $80 want to pay that same price today just for a download and PDF file? Inflation may have raised the price of physical copies to almost $100 but digital distribution was not all that common 10 or 15 years ago.

Just an FYI to anybody reading this. I did go ahead buy WiTW so this discussion isn't about me being too cheap to buy the thing. I just think prices for digital distribution is high. Not only here at Matrix but across the whole Software industry. Savings weren't passed on the consumer. We actually pay more for less now.

Posted: **Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:42 am**

ORIGINAL: raventhefuhrer

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Outside of price, what would be your recommendation for how we help a customer like you make up his mind?

I'm very glad to hear that you will be able to give WITW a try after all. I hope you enjoy it!

Regards,

- Erik

Well, the problem you have is what a lot of 'deep' games have. Namely, what's best about your game is impossible, or at least very difficult to convey through something like screenshots or a brief video. If I see the newest Call of Duty, or some fancy new WW2 shooter game I can hear the music, see the cool graphics, the frantic action - gimmie gimmie gimmie! What a game like that has to offer comes across right away, and if you're into that sort of thing that's great and you can pick it up.

But what's Gary Grigsby's War in the West? It's a nice map with little squares on it. And it's really expensive. That's basically all an outsider looking in can see at a glance, and as someone with no past history with the series, that's not a lot to go on. I mention this only because one recurring theme I've seen in posters in this thread is how great these games are and how much of a master Gary Grigsby is...and that's great if you're familiar with the series but to a neophyte it's like '...okay...'

So what can you do?

1) More pictures - I would post fifty screenshots or more - anything you can find, and pictures with information. You only need one or two of these: (INSERT GENERIC STRATEGIC MAP PICTURE - because I can't post links) What you really want are these: (INSERT PICTURE OF 4th CA ARMOURED DIVISION STAT SHEET w/ Lt. GENERAL HENRY CRERAR PICTURE) full of information, or menus that show different parts of the game. Take a picture of some obscure Polish battalion in Italy, with a nice colored picture of their commander. 'Holy crap! Is that a Slovakian brigade?' Or Heinz Guderian at the head of an Armeegruppe shattering the Western Allies. Or more stuff like this: (INSERT PICTURE OF AIR WAR INTERFACE) pretty color pictured of an Me262, tons of stats, 'holy ----- look at all those buttons. The air war in this game must be really intricate and not just an afterthought'. If you've got a complex game and you're proud of it, then show it in the screenshots - that has a charm all its own, and an appeal to people like me.

This is pornography for your target audience, and speaking for myself seeing those sorts of things would engage me immediately.

2) A Working Demo - Either in the form of a free scenario that anyone can download (just a handful of turns), or an actual demo. That way people can look at the game, touch it, try it, click on all the cool buttons and decide for themselves. It's less of a leap of faith.

3) Manual - Matrix Game's manuals are great. You should have a link to your's, in its full and unabridged edition, posted right next to the 'Buy Now!' link in the store. All I've been able to find so far is a 'preview' posted on the forums here.

One last thing. It's worth noting that the only reason I'm here is because I saw another Matrix Games title (Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm) on Steam, discounted to a very reasonable price. Had it not been for that, I'd never have heard of Matrix Games, or Gary Grigsby, or these forums. Food for thought. Which isn't to say you need to go put your game on Steam, but I think there's probably a younger generation of Wargamers like myself who are a bit of an untapped market. 20 somethings in college, or just starting out.

To be specific, I found Flashpoint Campaigns on Steam, bought it, enjoyed it. Three of my friends (so far) at least have bought it now too. Unfortunately WitW won't be as easy to sell by word of mouth due to sticker shock, but that's a separate issue I guess.

I'd like to address your points a bit if I may.

1) Nothing wrong with more fanfare. I think Matrix does an alright job of showcasing their games most of the times, but some do not even get the attention they warrant. This could be a manpower issue. You'll notice that some titles are more open during development with many having participation by the programmers, beta teams etc. Others just show up and are ready for sale. IMO, Matrix could do a better job in some cases here. But keep in mind also that much of this responsibility lies at the individual development teams. Some are better than others about hyping their games pre-release. With that said, I agree with you. More is better in this department.

2) There are a few Matrix games that do have demos, but not too many. Of those that do, they are mostly simpler game systems. e.g. Battlefield Academy, Unity of Command etc. It would be nearly impossible to create a demo for a game such as this considering the amount of time that is needed to learn the system. Most people wouldn't invest such time for a demo and it may even put people off. This is where pre-release AAR's come in handy. There is also evidence that a demo on a complex game can actually hurt sales as disclosed by the makers of the original Airborne Assault.

Also, a game like WitW is not exactly your entry level wargame. People looking to purchase this game generally understand that it takes much effort to grasp the concepts and that it is indeed a commitment. Even Flashpoint is a moderate level game as far as complexity is concerned. That being said, I'd love some earlier pre-release videos and AAR's.

Lastly, demo's cost time=money. The payoff has to be worth it.

3) As someone who likes reading manuals, i like this idea. It's not like the pirates don't already have them once released anyways. Would love to hear the reason why they arent.

Always glad to have fresh blood in our hobby. Maybe your friends would be interested in some of the more entry level games of which several do have demos? Hate to overwhelm anyone and turn them off to such a wonderful genre.

This old man is tired so I hope what I wrote makes sense.

mo reb

Posted: **Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:17 am**

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
I think it's worth also keeping inflation in mind. If the games today cost about the same as they cost you ten years ago, that means they've actually gotten less expensive.

FYI, I paid something like $80 for the original War in Russia for my Apple II some thirty plus years ago, with a much, much smaller and thinner softcover manual and two floppy disks and a map. With inflation, that would be something like $200 now I'd guess.

Regards,

- Erik

I think you're missing my point. The best example I can give of what I'm talking about is ebooks. I just bought some books for my father for Christmas and I paid $25 a piece for them. The whole set cost me around $125. I bought the same set of digital books for my tablet for less than $50.

And how much did it cost to print the ebook? Bind the pages into a paper or hardback? Ship them to a distributor? To their final destination? Pay all the people involved. Then send back the ones that never sell, even at a steep discount?

Now you have an idea as to why digital books are cheaper.

Posted: **Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:07 am**

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

And how much did it cost to print the ebook? Bind the pages into a paper or hardback? Ship them to a distributor? To their final destination? Pay all the people involved. Then send back the ones that never sell, even at a steep discount?

Now you have an idea as to why digital books are cheaper.

Most people I know don't print ebooks. They read them on tablets. The overhead cost of an ebook is probably about as much as it cost to compile a software program and store it on a server. Sure, there's overhead but nothing like there would be to store physical products in a warehouse and deal with shipping them out. So what's your point? My point is that digital software is priced too high. One of the biggest advantages to digital distribution was supposed to be cheaper prices. That was one of the selling points when publishers started with it. The other was convenience. No doubt it's convenient but I sure haven't seen any cheaper prices. In fact, prices have remained the same or went up. We pay more and get less than we used to. Before digital distribution, if you bought a game, you would get the software, in most cases a fairly decent manual and possibly even some maps and other things. Now you pay the same price for a digital download, get a PDF manual and also pay for your own bandwidth to download it.

I understand the cost of physical software. I understand the pricing of actual books. I understand the overhead involved in storing, selling and shipping physical products. Note I said I paid $25 per book and that a set cost me $125. I also said that the same digital versions of that set that I can read on my tablet cost me less than $50. The retailer (Amazon) could have been like software publishers and charged a cheaper but still relatively high price for the set of ebooks. Instead they passed the savings on to the consumer. Software publishers should really think about doing the same. I bought WiTW but came very close to spending my $80 on boardgames and books. Something that actually will last longer than a few years. You can't compare a board game or book to a piece of software. There is no comparison. The game or book, if properly taken care of, can last a lifetime but software is like a perishable item. It has a short shelf life. Personally I don't mind paying more for things that are going to last but I don't like paying for things that I won't be able to use maybe 5 years from now. Digital software is priced too high. Not only here at Matrix but throughout the whole software industry. It's why people wait for the sales like the Matrix Holiday sale or the Steam Holiday sale. People want value for their dollar.

Posted: **Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:42 am**

Most people I know don't print ebooks. They read them on tablets. The overhead cost of an ebook is probably about as much as it cost to compile a software program and store it on a server. Sure, there's overhead but nothing like there would be to store physical products in a warehouse and deal with shipping them out. So what's your point?

Uh, unless I'm missing something, his point is exactly what you are saying. I took his questions as a form of the Socratic method*...

*The Socratic method is a form of inquiry and discussion between individuals, based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to illuminate ideas...

ORIGINAL: tevans6220
In fact, prices have remained the same or went up. We pay more and get less than we used to. Before digital distribution, if you bought a game, you would get the software, in most cases a fairly decent manual and possibly even some maps and other things. Now you pay the same price for a digital download, get a PDF manual and also pay for your own bandwidth to download it.

I don't agree with this line of reasoning--the quality of current games is generally far ahead of games from the old days. Personally I'd much prefer to pay more for a better game and a pdf manual, not to mention digital download, which is incredibly convenient.

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