Matrix Games Forums

River Wide, Ocean Deep - A New Perspective on Operation Sea Lion. I think you will find comments on it there, too (Strategypage).

ORIGINAL: Leandros

ORIGINAL: wdolson

There was an extensive discussion about the invasion of England in 1940 here a couple of months back. Nobody got labeled with any particular political belief,
but I think a pretty strong case was made that Germany's odds of success were pretty slim at best.

Bill

He-he - why am I not surprised....[;)]

Some years back I was involved in the Sealion discussions on the Armchair General website. It went over several years with approx. 15.000 postings. It was later
given the acrynom: TTTSNBN - The Thread That Shall Not Be Named. In the typical Sealion discussion it is almost impossible to have the participants
keep things in context and very few have a good knowledge of the German preparations - as well as the British weaknesses at the time.

Because of this I decided to write a book on it. The ACG discussions did a lot to help me find, and research, many of the finer points. As I have experienced
it most people discussing Sealion have a quite strong pre-occupation - or agenda. My agenda was, if it could be called that, to find out if the Germans really
were as amateurish in this respect (Operation Sea Lion) as they are usually portrayed. I found they weren't.

On the subject of the book project I'm working on now - "Saving MacArthur" I see much the same. My main parameter to justify a look into this is that most US
planners and military analysts before the war had drawn the correct conclusions: A grand campaign such as the Japanese started in December 1941 would inevitably
lead to a serious over-stretching of their resources. Therefore they were vulnerable.

A simple example: The Japanese thrust beyond Davao/Mindanao in December '41 was stopped at Digos/Malalag by the already existing US/Filipino resources on
Mindanao. They didn't have the resources to renew the Mindanao (and Visayas) offensive untill after the fall of Bataan. If Menado had been reinforced and the
invasion repulsed, with Japanese losses, they could not have continued to Kendari and Ambon as they did as much of their forces, naval, army and air, were
planned to be used for these sequential operations. Some of the forces in Davao/Digos, too. Which is why they had to postpone that operation.

Admittedly, "Saving MacArthur" depends on the important pre-requisite that President Roosevelt would have to strike down on the defeatist attitude of his
military leaders, mainly the navy. The other important pre-requisite would be to use the US resources in the Far East for American purposes, that of
relieving the Philippines, and not squander them on a British-led ABDA. There were provisions for this in the ABDA agreements.

I'm afraid a discussion on the subject, as outlined by me here, would lead to much the same as the Sealion discussions I have seen. Actually, I have already
experienced it. Which is why I instead choose to use my time on a book project where I can put things in proper context. And not be called ugly words.....[;)]

To see what resources were right around the corner of the Philippines when the war started I recommend reading Glenn Williford's: Racing the Sunrise. Sure, it
takes a little imagination to see how this could have been used if it had been pushed forward rather than held back. The Germany-first policy was also not
a hinder for this, and more, this was taken care of by Roosevelt on the Arcadia Conference in January.


Fred

ORIGINAL: witpqs
So, what is the name, etc. of your Op Sea Lion book?

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: witpqs
So, what is the name, etc. of your Op Sea Lion book?

The book name: River Wide, Ocean Deep: A New Perspective on Operation Sea Lion by Fred Leander

and a link to the review: http://www.strategypage.com/bookreviews/868.asp

ORIGINAL: Orm

The book name: River Wide, Ocean Deep: A New Perspective on Operation Sea Lion by Fred Leander

ORIGINAL: Leandros


Hi, Orm - I didn't know Sweden had "ski divisions"...[:)]...It's hot here now!

Fred

ORIGINAL: Orm

Hello Fred,

Sweden do not have any special "Ski Divisions" nor did they have them during WWII. But a majority of soldiers are trained in ski combat. And there are, and
were, some units that were trained in operating behind enemy lines and skis are a good way to do that during winter.

But ski warfare has a special kind of hazard.

Here spring is arriving fast but there are still snow in parts of the country. But a month ago I had to shovel 0.6 meters of snow to get to our firewood
storage.

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The west coast of North America is seeing an early spring too. February is usually one of the coldest months of the year, but this year we saw daily temps 10-15C. A lot of stuff is blooming early and the bees are going nuts. I expect a bumper crop for my fruit trees this year.

Anyway, American Amazon doesn't have your book listed. The link to Amazon from the review takes you to an "not found" page.

Bill

ORIGINAL: Leandros
As I never hoped to make a lot of money on a book covering such a subject I did it all by myself. Selling it, too. I was correct, I haven't made a lot of money
on it...[&:]...but I have the satisfaction of seeing that every nickel of the sales go into my pocket....[;)]

Fred

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

TTTSNBN is found at http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/s ... Sealion%3A . Fair warning, it is ...long [;)] Something to peruse.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

TTTSNBN is found at http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/s ... Sealion%3A . Fair warning, it is ...long [;)] Something to peruse.

warspite1

Excellent Lecivius thank-you - I look forward to reading this.

ORIGINAL: Leandros

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Prior to this I was considering having Britain neutralized in 1940 and Parliament moves to Canada along with a major part of the British Fleet. Maybe even negating World War I and leaving some German colonies in the pacific. That might be a possibility but every time I get into any kind of "what if" story I get blasted for it so I figured why even try. [:D]

Tell me about it! I wrote a book on Operation Sea Lion - the planned German invasion of England in September 1940 where I indicated it could have succeeded.
I was immediately branded a Nazi....[&:]..

Probably some of the reason why no realistic game has been made of it......[:-]

Fred

ORIGINAL: Symon

Good on you Fred. Some of us here look at things in terms of a critical thinking model. Our Philippine scenario is predicated on the time-advance of the pipeline.
We know who did what to whom, and when, and why, and got righteous about giving MacArthur what he was promised (or at least what was on the docks).

I am not a piss on MacArthur person. I don't like him, and I don't think he was all that great strategically, at the time, but he was an operational genius. Genius does not imply perfection in every endeavor. Genius implies thinking/acting outside the box in a manner that will accomplish the mission.

Pretty dry stuff, but I like to think of Generals, and even Majors and Colonels, in terms of elegance. Some got it. Some don't. Mac, for all his warts, had elegance. Ciao. JWE

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

TTTSNBN is found at http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/s ... Sealion%3A . Fair warning, it is ...long [;)] Something to peruse.

warspite1

Excellent Lecivius thank-you - I look forward to reading this.

WOW! Almost a thousand pages long. [X(]

ORIGINAL: General Patton

ORIGINAL: Leandros

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Prior to this I was considering having Britain neutralized in 1940 and Parliament moves to Canada along with a major part of the British Fleet. Maybe even negating World War I and leaving some German colonies in the pacific. That might be a possibility but every time I get into any kind of "what if" story I get blasted for it so I figured why even try. [:D]

Tell me about it! I wrote a book on Operation Sea Lion - the planned German invasion of England in September 1940 where I indicated it could have succeeded.
I was immediately branded a Nazi....[&:]..

Probably some of the reason why no realistic game has been made of it......[:-]

Fred

John Tillers Campaign series( Matrix Games) has several scenarios about sealion. I played them last about 5 or 6 years ago.

ORIGINAL: Leandros

ORIGINAL: General Patton

ORIGINAL: Leandros




Tell me about it! I wrote a book on Operation Sea Lion - the planned German invasion of England in September 1940 where I indicated it could have succeeded.
I was immediately branded a Nazi....[&:]..

Probably some of the reason why no realistic game has been made of it......[:-]

Fred

John Tillers Campaign series( Matrix Games) has several scenarios about sealion. I played them last about 5 or 6 years ago.

I've found only one - that on TOAW.

Fred

warspite1

Trouble is, if they were realistic Sealion games they would be pretty short games [;)]

ORIGINAL: Leandros

warspite1

Trouble is, if they were realistic Sealion games they would be pretty short games [;)]

Well, there you go.

Fred