Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Yeah Padang, Sibolga, even Benkoelen and Sabang . . . did the Japanese actually overrun these locations? Or for that matter, _all_ of Java? Or was it more a matter of the Japanese having taken certain key strategic locations like Soerbaja, Batavia, Balikpapin, Tarakan, Makassar, etc. and so the Dutch just surrendered?

ORIGINAL: jwolf

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

With my first ever PBEM turn one coming to me any time now, I'm curious: how rare is it that an allied player (in a PBEM) manages to hold on to strategic locations in DEI, Malaysia or Philippines for longer times?

I don't know, but it seems routine in AARs I have read that the Allied player still holds something in DEI in April or even May. In my game, however, I am likely to set a record in the other direction. [:o]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Seriously the Langley WAS headed for Java as Bill sez but I am not sure who was to fly them.

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Against the Ai it is quite easy to make the Dutch Army, Navy and Airforce survive the Japanese invasion of the DEI.

What bother me is the way the game assumes they will go down in flames and never facilitates a transition to the offensive by them.

Once you start back onto the offense their LCUs are still stuck relying on air transport to move between the islands.

They have to rely on the ABA portion of ABDA to retake the Dutch bases so they can then be airlifted back onto their own reconquered islands.

I would love to see a provision that allows their LCUs to become unrestricted if they survive past a certain date, or at least purchasable.

ORIGINAL: Symon

Were there Dutch reinforcements? - No.

Were there any local sources? Harald Velemans makes it clear - basically No.

What you see is what you get.

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Against the Ai it is quite easy to make the Dutch Army, Navy and Airforce survive the Japanese invasion of the DEI.

What bother me is the way the game assumes they will go down in flames and never facilitates a transition to the offensive by them.

Once you start back onto the offense their LCUs are still stuck relying on air transport to move between the islands.

They have to rely on the ABA portion of ABDA to retake the Dutch bases so they can then be airlifted back onto their own reconquered islands.

I would love to see a provision that allows their LCUs to become unrestricted if they survive past a certain date, or at least purchasable.

ORIGINAL: crsutton
and they will have to die where they stay. Yes, it is an issue if the Dutch survive. But the Dutch get no devices or replacement troops anyways.

A further 149 CTLS-4TA's were en route to Java when the Dutch East Indies
surrendered. These tanks were unloaded in Australia where they served as training
tanks with the Australian Army. They were soon declared obsolete and scrapped. The
39 remaining light tanks on the contract were shipped from the U.S. to the Dutch West
Indies (7 to Curacao, 6 to Aruba and 26 to Suriname).

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: crsutton
and they will have to die where they stay. Yes, it is an issue if the Dutch survive. But the Dutch get no devices or replacement troops anyways.

The problem was the Dutch (unlike us) didn’t know they were destined to lose and historically they behaved in a way and were busy making plans as if they were not about to lose. The below quoted text discussing a large order of CTLS-4TA tanks clearly shows they were planning to remain combat worthy right up to the end.

A further 149 CTLS-4TA's were en route to Java when the Dutch East Indies
surrendered. These tanks were unloaded in Australia where they served as training
tanks with the Australian Army. They were soon declared obsolete and scrapped. The
39 remaining light tanks on the contract were shipped from the U.S. to the Dutch West
Indies (7 to Curacao, 6 to Aruba and 26 to Suriname).

So some design decisions were made in the interest of forcing the Dutch into a hopeless situation and the game fails utterly to model the Dutch mindset of continuing the fight for as long as they could. So hard coding the Dutch replacement pools to prevent their ability to fight on beyond early 42 is a design decision but it does not reflect historical reality. Had they survived the Dutch would have found ways to remain combat capable.

But of course there are lots of areas in game like this. For instance the fact India was never historically invaded leaves it very weak in game as your reinforcement track reflects that historical reality. Had India actually been invaded I have no doubt offensive operations in Africa and other areas would have been postponed or perhaps even cancelled completely in favor of reinforcing India to save India and keep it in the war. But in game that can’t occur so players are forced to try and defend India with an OOB that reflects an historical situation of a non-threat environment to India.

ORIGINAL: tigercub

I have to say its a surprize Dutch with a tommy gun.

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: crsutton
and they will have to die where they stay. Yes, it is an issue if the Dutch survive. But the Dutch get no devices or replacement troops anyways.

The problem was the Dutch (unlike us) didn’t know they were destined to lose and historically they behaved in a way and were busy making plans as if they were not about to lose. The below quoted text discussing a large order of CTLS-4TA tanks clearly shows they were planning to remain combat worthy right up to the end.

A further 149 CTLS-4TA's were en route to Java when the Dutch East Indies
surrendered. These tanks were unloaded in Australia where they served as training
tanks with the Australian Army. They were soon declared obsolete and scrapped. The
39 remaining light tanks on the contract were shipped from the U.S. to the Dutch West
Indies (7 to Curacao, 6 to Aruba and 26 to Suriname).

So some design decisions were made in the interest of forcing the Dutch into a hopeless situation and the game fails utterly to model the Dutch mindset of continuing the fight for as long as they could. So hard coding the Dutch replacement pools to prevent their ability to fight on beyond early 42 is a design decision but it does not reflect historical reality. Had they survived the Dutch would have found ways to remain combat capable.

But of course there are lots of areas in game like this. For instance the fact India was never historically invaded leaves it very weak in game as your reinforcement track reflects that historical reality. Had India actually been invaded I have no doubt offensive operations in Africa and other areas would have been postponed or perhaps even cancelled completely in favor of reinforcing India to save India and keep it in the war. But in game that can’t occur so players are forced to try and defend India with an OOB that reflects an historical situation of a non-threat environment to India.

Very concise synopsis Jim.

Unfortunately the results you outline in India give the game a decidedly pro Japanese slant from the obviously biased perspective of an AFB.

Shouldn't there be negative consequences to Japan for such an adventure that would offset the OOBs inability to deal with it?

I would think the same is true for the over the top ability of the Japanese to use the invulnerable KB to cover an invasion of Australia in January 42 to facilitate running up a huge VP total by strategic bombing industry that has zero fighter cover.

The Japanese didn't know the KB was invulnerable.

Sorry for drifting off topic.

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
Shouldn't there be negative consequences to Japan for such an adventure that would offset the OOBs inability to deal with it?

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
Shouldn't there be negative consequences to Japan for such an adventure that would offset the OOBs inability to deal with it?

I wasn’t trying to open a can of worms over this or anything, I was just looking to emphasize my point about hard coded design decisions and the limitations they cause in game.

In a perfect world there would be a button that becomes active that allied players could push once Japanese troops landed in India. That button would represent some of the Forces from Africa that were used to launch Operation Lightfoot attacks that the allies could designate to come to India (at a significant VP cost of course). I’d say 2 armor divisions and 3 or 4 infantry divisions is not beyond reason should the decision to forgo the attacks have been made. You could even go further and give players a choice, postpone they get 1 armor and 2 inf, cancel and they get 2 armor and 4 inf.

A second button could represent units from Operation Torch, these units would be considerable as the cancellation of that action would represent the wholesale redeployment of the entire force (ships included) to India.

Another possibility would be to simply accelerate the timeline of the reinforcements list for any unit scheduled to arrive in India/Aden by 6 months or something similar to what happens if the US gets invaded.

Jim