Page 2 of 4
RE: 3rd Reich
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:07 pm
by bo
ORIGINAL: belechannas
The thing about calculating odds is: combat is very bloody, and the CRT favors the attacker.
The attacker wins 100% of the time at odds of 3-1 or better (with a varying amount of losses), and even at 2:1 odds the attacker will win 31 times out of 32.
Defending units are at least doubled (on clear terrain) or tripled (on mountain/swamp, across rivers), but the game still has a chess-like feel due to the attacker's ability to plan and control the action during his turn.
Agreed but is not that the case for the attacker in all games and real life battles, they set the pace except for the inept early on Northern generals of the American Civil War, you mention varying losses, I have seen the attacker win Pyrrhic victories quite a few times in 3rd Reich. [:(]
Pyrrich victory: it is a victory that inflicts such a devastating toll on the victor that it is tantamount to defeat. [;)]
Bo
RE: 3rd Reich
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:38 pm
by Centuur
ORIGINAL: Zartacla
ORIGINAL: Centuur
I first played this game on a Commodore 128. That's how old it is. At that time the AI was really easy to crack...
Unlikely. The C 128 went out of production in 1989. The computer version of 3rd Reich was released in 1996. Even if you found a way to install an upgraded version of MS-DOS onto an old C 128 I doubt it would have either the processing power or the RAM needed to run it.
The biggest drawback to the 3rd Reich computer game is that it was released several years after Advanced Third Reich (1992), the greatly improved version of the board game. An entire generation of wargamers (including me) grew up on A3R and had little or no interest in playing a computer game version of a board game that was essentially obsolete.
Psst... Look at this. This version was bought by me in 1992:
http://www.gamesmeter.nl/game/13004
I played it on the 128 Amiga...
RE: 3rd Reich
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:03 pm
by rkr1958
True story. It was the summer of 1998 and I saw on-line that Avalon Hill had converted my all time favorite game (at that time) to the computer. I believe the cost was around $45.00. I had been out of wargaming since the mid 1980's (board games only) and haven't yet made the plunge into computer wargames. I thought what the heck and called Avalon Hill to order this game. Yes, I actually called to order a game. I had done it before. The last purchase I made from them (Avalon Hill) was Statis Pro Baseball in 1991.
A lady answered the phone and I told her I was interested in purchasing 3rd Reich PC. I currently was running Windows 95 and asked her if the game ran with that O/S. She said not very well. I was shocked by her answer and my excitement at getting back into playing wargames was quickly deflated. I thanked the lady and hung up in disappointment. I think all this happened a month before Avalon Hill went out of business in August of 1998. What a sad day. What a sad event.
But, in 2003 I found 3rd Reich for the PC, installed it and played it on Windows '98. I now can play it on Windows 8.1, 64 bit using DOSBox.
However, my favorite game (AH's 3rd Reich) has been replaced. First by Slitherine's Commander Europe at War - Grand Strategy (CEaW-GS) and now by Matrix's MWiF! Though replaced, I still occasionally fire it up and play a turn or two just to make sure I can. And have figured out how to play this 16-bit 20-year old DOS game on a 64-bit Windows 8.1 computer. The secret is the freeware application DOSBox.
RE: 3rd Reich
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:13 pm
by Rasputitsa
ORIGINAL: rkr1958
True story. It was the summer of 1998 and I saw on-line that Avalon Hill had converted my all time favorite game (at that time) to the computer. I believe the cost was around $45.00. I had been out of wargaming since the mid 1980's (board games only) and haven't yet made the plunge into computer wargames. I thought what the heck and called Avalon Hill to order this game. Yes, I actually called to order a game. I had done it before. The last purchase I made from them (Avalon Hill) was Statis Pro Baseball in 1991.
A lady answered the phone and I told her I was interested in purchasing 3rd Reich PC. I currently was running Windows 95 and asked her if the game ran with that O/S. She said not very well. I was shocked by her answer and my excitement at getting back into playing wargames was quickly deflated. I thanked the lady and hung up in disappointment. I think all this happened a month before Avalon Hill went out of business in August of 1998. What a sad day. What a sad event.
But, in 2003 I found 3rd Reich for the PC, installed it and played it on Windows '98. I now can play it on Windows 8.1, 64 bit using DOSBox.
However, my favorite game (AH's 3rd Reich) has been replaced. First by Slitherine's Commander Europe at War - Grand Strategy (CEaW-GS) and now by Matrix's MWiF! Though replaced, I still occasionally fire it up and play a turn or two just to make sure I can. And have figured out how to play this 16-bit 20-year old DOS game on a 64-bit Windows 8.1 computer. The secret is the freeware application DOSBox.
Me to, I am running it in DOSBox with DOSShell front-end, several of my old DOS games are still running in Windows 8.1 with DOSBox. [8D]
RE: 3rd Reich
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:27 pm
by bo
ORIGINAL: Centuur
ORIGINAL: Zartacla
ORIGINAL: Centuur
I first played this game on a Commodore 128. That's how old it is. At that time the AI was really easy to crack...
Unlikely. The C 128 went out of production in 1989. The computer version of 3rd Reich was released in 1996. Even if you found a way to install an upgraded version of MS-DOS onto an old C 128 I doubt it would have either the processing power or the RAM needed to run it.
The biggest drawback to the 3rd Reich computer game is that it was released several years after Advanced Third Reich (1992), the greatly improved version of the board game. An entire generation of wargamers (including me) grew up on A3R and had little or no interest in playing a computer game version of a board game that was essentially obsolete.
Psst... Look at this. This version was bought by me in 1992:
http://www.gamesmeter.nl/game/13004
I played it on the 128 Amiga...
Psst...Zartacla wrong that is impossible centuur.[&:] By the way I agree with every word in that brochure statement except vergelijk, [:D] what are we comparing?[&:]
Bo
RE: 3rd Reich
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:33 pm
by bo
ORIGINAL: rkr1958
True story. It was the summer of 1998 and I saw on-line that Avalon Hill had converted my all time favorite game (at that time) to the computer. I believe the cost was around $45.00. I had been out of wargaming since the mid 1980's (board games only) and haven't yet made the plunge into computer wargames. I thought what the heck and called Avalon Hill to order this game. Yes, I actually called to order a game. I had done it before. The last purchase I made from them (Avalon Hill) was Statis Pro Baseball in 1991.
A lady answered the phone and I told her I was interested in purchasing 3rd Reich PC. I currently was running Windows 95 and asked her if the game ran with that O/S. She said not very well. I was shocked by her answer and my excitement at getting back into playing wargames was quickly deflated. I thanked the lady and hung up in disappointment. I think all this happened a month before Avalon Hill went out of business in August of 1998. What a sad day. What a sad event.
But, in 2003 I found 3rd Reich for the PC, installed it and played it on Windows '98. I now can play it on Windows 8.1, 64 bit using DOSBox.
However, my favorite game (AH's 3rd Reich) has been replaced. First by Slitherine's Commander Europe at War - Grand Strategy (CEaW-GS) and now by Matrix's MWiF! Though replaced, I still occasionally fire it up and play a turn or two just to make sure I can. And have figured out how to play this 16-bit 20-year old DOS game on a 64-bit Windows 8.1 computer. The secret is the freeware application DOSBox.
Cool story rkr and that is how the game is downloaded from Old Games site to a computer with DOSBox. It plays very well except for the very fast speed of the computer AI move which could be considered a good thing.[;)]
Bo
RE: 3rd Reich
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:38 pm
by bo
ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
ORIGINAL: rkr1958
True story. It was the summer of 1998 and I saw on-line that Avalon Hill had converted my all time favorite game (at that time) to the computer. I believe the cost was around $45.00. I had been out of wargaming since the mid 1980's (board games only) and haven't yet made the plunge into computer wargames. I thought what the heck and called Avalon Hill to order this game. Yes, I actually called to order a game. I had done it before. The last purchase I made from them (Avalon Hill) was Statis Pro Baseball in 1991.
A lady answered the phone and I told her I was interested in purchasing 3rd Reich PC. I currently was running Windows 95 and asked her if the game ran with that O/S. She said not very well. I was shocked by her answer and my excitement at getting back into playing wargames was quickly deflated. I thanked the lady and hung up in disappointment. I think all this happened a month before Avalon Hill went out of business in August of 1998. What a sad day. What a sad event.
But, in 2003 I found 3rd Reich for the PC, installed it and played it on Windows '98. I now can play it on Windows 8.1, 64 bit using DOSBox.
However, my favorite game (AH's 3rd Reich) has been replaced. First by Slitherine's Commander Europe at War - Grand Strategy (CEaW-GS) and now by Matrix's MWiF! Though replaced, I still occasionally fire it up and play a turn or two just to make sure I can. And have figured out how to play this 16-bit 20-year old DOS game on a 64-bit Windows 8.1 computer. The secret is the freeware application DOSBox.
Me to, I am running it in DOSBox with DOSShell front-end, several of my old DOS games are still running in Windows 8.1 with DOSBox. [8D]
I am running it on Windows 7 Home premium 64 bit, is there any way of slowing down the AI movements of units?
Bo
RE: 3rd Reich
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:19 pm
by belechannas
You might try setting the process priority to the lowest possible value in the Windows Task Manager.
Played a few turns, and I'm impressed, in a nostalgic sort of way. I actually owned this back when AH was still in business, but back then A3R was the thing, and the AI for this 3R4 program was still pretty poor.
RE: 3rd Reich
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:19 pm
by rkr1958
ORIGINAL: bo
ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
ORIGINAL: rkr1958
True story. It was the summer of 1998 and I saw on-line that Avalon Hill had converted my all time favorite game (at that time) to the computer. I believe the cost was around $45.00. I had been out of wargaming since the mid 1980's (board games only) and haven't yet made the plunge into computer wargames. I thought what the heck and called Avalon Hill to order this game. Yes, I actually called to order a game. I had done it before. The last purchase I made from them (Avalon Hill) was Statis Pro Baseball in 1991.
A lady answered the phone and I told her I was interested in purchasing 3rd Reich PC. I currently was running Windows 95 and asked her if the game ran with that O/S. She said not very well. I was shocked by her answer and my excitement at getting back into playing wargames was quickly deflated. I thanked the lady and hung up in disappointment. I think all this happened a month before Avalon Hill went out of business in August of 1998. What a sad day. What a sad event.
But, in 2003 I found 3rd Reich for the PC, installed it and played it on Windows '98. I now can play it on Windows 8.1, 64 bit using DOSBox.
However, my favorite game (AH's 3rd Reich) has been replaced. First by Slitherine's Commander Europe at War - Grand Strategy (CEaW-GS) and now by Matrix's MWiF! Though replaced, I still occasionally fire it up and play a turn or two just to make sure I can. And have figured out how to play this 16-bit 20-year old DOS game on a 64-bit Windows 8.1 computer. The secret is the freeware application DOSBox.
Me to, I am running it in DOSBox with DOSShell front-end, several of my old DOS games are still running in Windows 8.1 with DOSBox. [8D]
I am running it on Windows 7 Home premium 64 bit, is there any way of slowing down the AI movements of units?
Bo
None, that I'm aware. [&:]
RE: 3rd Reich
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:49 pm
by Klydon
I had 3rd edition in the late 70's. We played the crap out of it. It never got touched again when I got WiF. Just blew it out of the water. I saw later versions of 3R after they ripped off some ideas from WiF. No offense to John Prados, but he has to be one of the worst to write a rules book for a game.
I never did get the computer version.
RE: 3rd Reich
Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:50 am
by belechannas
ORIGINAL: Klydon
I saw later versions of 3R after they ripped off some ideas from WiF.
Just for the record, the designer of Advanced Third Reich and later incarnations of the game (Bruce Harper) has never played, or even laid eyes on WiF. Not once. Some players suggested he check it out, but he absolutely refused to.
His reason, when I asked him why, was (laughing): "What if I liked it?"
RE: 3rd Reich
Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:51 am
by Jagdtiger14
Belechannas: I was on that A3R mailing list ('95 to '98)! I also went to Avaloncon in 1995 and 1996...was the Wooden Ships and Iron Men Champ in '96. Remember in '95 the guys from Finland?...they played well and spoke Finnish over the board...I was very impressed!
RE: 3rd Reich
Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:33 am
by brian brian
Bruce Harper was one helluva Third Reich player, I remember his name from being a long-time subscriber to The General. I never kept up with the game in the 90s. I started playing World in Flames in 1989 and by 1991 I never looked at Third Reich ever again, after playing it through most of the 80s including at small tournaments at my University and home state though never at any of the big tournaments.
In the early 80s I played Third Reich with my friends one turn per day every weekday. Our most epic game came down to die roll for the Battle of Berlin on the very last turn.
I even played it by mail through a 'zine where you mailed your moves to the editor and he printed the results and mailed a new issue back to you for your opponent to make his moves; there was usually a dozen games going simultaneously in each issue. At one point he wrote a review of the first edition of World in Flames, along with a similar game called East Wind Rain. Most of us didn't notice though. My first game of WiF was in 3rd edition.
It was a really great game. A grand strategic level game of a humongous 6 year war but on par with the operational AH Classics in that the limited scope made it simple to discuss openings and on into mid-game strategy.
About the only thing I would want out of the game now would be to watch an AI-vs-AI match scroll by on the screen. I'd probably buy some Two Hearted Ale and make some popcorn for that. Two Hearted is to beer as World in Flames is to wargames.
RE: 3rd Reich
Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:16 am
by belechannas
ORIGINAL: brian brian
Bruce Harper was one helluva Third Reich player, I remember his name from being a long-time subscriber to The General.
Fun fact: Bruce was also a Master-level chess player, and a moderately big deal on the Canadian chess scene from what I gather.
He also designed Advanced Civilization and Wrasslin'.
I never kept up with the game in the 90s. I started playing World in Flames in 1989 and by 1991 I never looked at Third Reich ever again, after playing it through most of the 80s including at small tournaments at my University and home state though never at any of the big tournaments.
In the early 80s I played Third Reich with my friends one turn per day every weekday. Our most epic game came down to die roll for the Battle of Berlin on the very last turn.
Yeah, we had games like that too. The problem was, in the era before email and web-based information, that getting answers to rules questions (and there were *a lot* of gray areas in the first and even later editions) took forever.
Being in Junior High School, my friends and I had some MAJOR rules arguments. I learned rules-lawyering from trying to play the first edition of Third Reich...
I think I discovered WiF 3 some time between 1985 and 1987. I never really had a steady group of people to play with, though, and got back into Advanced Third Reich when play-by-email became a thing in 90's (A3R was designed to be PBM/PBEM friendly, and even had some instructions in the rules).
On the whole, I think I liked WiF 3 or 4 a lot more than the later versions, which piled on detail at levels that were extremely dubious given the scale of the game, while at the same time obscuring the elegance of the basic design with a lot rules that were neither elegant nor even effective at what they were trying to do.
RE: 3rd Reich
Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:22 am
by brian brian
Chrome is so irresistible. I've met some great WiF players that play Classic though.
RE: 3rd Reich
Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:40 am
by CrusssDaddy
Speaking of East Wind Rain, anyone here play it? Looking at it on BGG, it looks very odd but somehow charming...
RE: 3rd Reich
Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:22 am
by belechannas
I bought it when it came out, but was unable to make enough sense out of the rules to play it solo. I wrote about 10 pages of Q&A to the publisher, and they eventually answered about half. It seemed like an extremely unfinished and half-baked product.
I'd recommend Fire in the Sky as a far superior product at a comparable scale.
RE: 3rd Reich
Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:27 am
by paulderynck
Like many others I was a dedicated 3R player in the early 80s and then along came WiF and the 3R game boxes (somehow I ended up with two copies) have been in storage ever since.
RE: 3rd Reich
Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:38 am
by CrusssDaddy
Fire in the Sky looks gorgeous, but a review says it features no production, which is my favorite part
RE: 3rd Reich
Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:58 am
by Rasputitsa
I am running it on Windows 7 Home premium 64 bit, is there any way of slowing down the AI movements of units?
Bo
I think DOSBox has key commands to set frame-rate and cycle speed, but it is years since I first set them up and 'age hath it's privileges', but memory is not one of them. I'll look at the set-up and see if I can remember how it's adjusted.
I have kept 'War in Russia', Third Reich' and other titles, going on all my laptop and desktop computers right up to Windows 8.1, although I only play them occasionally, just to remind myself what real games look like. I am a fan of WEGO, which some of these games use and, to my mind, this is the only way to play, giving a realistic uncertainty in a game world of 20/20 hindsight.
The more modern alternatives are Frank Hunter's games 'Piercing Fortress Europa' and 'Campaigns of the Danube 1805-1809', both using WEGO, I can take manual movement of unit counters in a grand strategic game like WiF, representing weeks, or months, of real time planning, but not shoveling countless units in weekly turns, such as WiTE and WiTW, no commander ever had direct command of all his units in this way.
WEGO represents the need to work through subordinate commanders and, in this, some of the older games are much more realistic than modern offerings, even if they are clunky, quirky and very frustrating, war is hell.[8D]