Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Should any Southerner be thought of as a racist **** because he/she sports a Confederate Flag? Do only racists identify with that flag?

To my mind, yes.

I don't see how anyone of a reasonable frame of mind could sport a Confederate flag, tacitly expressing support of a historical armed rebellion to keep people enslaved.

Is it only racists that support the flag? Probably not. I just don't see how anyone who knows enough of the history of it could say that it's something they'd willingly express support for.

The argument of displaying the flag as a sop "history" or "heritage" rings a bit false to me - surely there must be a better symbol representing the heritage of the Southern states that's not loaded with negitive associations?

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve





I'm impressed! That's a very adult point of view that I never expected. Admitting that you are ignorant of a matter. Well done sir!

Well, the nuances of the religious divide in Glasgow is something I've seen first hand, and even I can't fully understand or explain it. It would be crass of me to say otherwise for the same complex issues in other countries.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

warspite1

I was specifically thinking of wargames, but as for the wider issue and by the same token one could argue that by flying a Belgian Flag one is automatically supporting what happened in the Belgian Congo - and that would be ridiculous...

The Confederate flag (at least the common battle flag) was flown by the army that actively fought to keep people enslaved. The Belgian flag at least had a bit of history before it's association with the Congo that wasn't overwhelmingly negative.

The context of the flag being flown is a factor. If you're flying the Belgian flag in Brussles, it's not an issue. Flying the flag from a government building in the DRC? Well, how could that be interpreted?

warspite1

Did the South have no history that wasn't negative? Did the Southern States produce nothing of any value to the world? Was their only contribution slavery?

That is a question not a statement.

EDIT: Spelling [:@]

See my latest reply. Considering Southern history as a whole, why does it overwhelming use the symbols from the darkest part of it's history? Is there nothing in the South other than the Confederacy worth remembering? Is the epitome of Southern history it's struggle in it's rebellion to defend slavery?

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Should any Southerner be thought of as a racist **** because he/she sports a Confederate Flag? Do only racists identify with that flag?

To my mind, yes.

I don't see how anyone of a reasonable frame of mind could sport a Confederate flag, tacitly expressing support of a historical armed rebellion to keep people enslaved.

Is it only racists that support the flag? Probably not. I just don't see how anyone who knows enough of the history of it could say that it's something they'd willingly express support for.

The argument of displaying the flag as a sop "history" or "heritage" rings a bit false to me - surely there must be a better symbol representing the heritage of the Southern states that's not loaded with negitive associations?

warspite1

Well I have no further input on this but would love to hear further what Americans think. One of your States has the flag on it I believe. Bumber stickers are common etc etc. What do Americans (north) think when they see this symbol? What do Americans (south) feel this flag represents and why identify with it?

Thanks in advance

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Should any Southerner be thought of as a racist **** because he/she sports a Confederate Flag? Do only racists identify with that flag?

To my mind, yes.

I don't see how anyone of a reasonable frame of mind could sport a Confederate flag, tacitly expressing support of a historical armed rebellion to keep people enslaved.

Is it only racists that support the flag? Probably not. I just don't see how anyone who knows enough of the history of it could say that it's something they'd willingly express support for.

The argument of displaying the flag as a sop "history" or "heritage" rings a bit false to me - surely there must be a better symbol representing the heritage of the Southern states that's not loaded with negitive associations?

warspite1

Well I have no further input on this but would love to hear further what Americans think. One of your States has the flag on it I believe. Bumber stickers are common etc etc. What do Americans (north) think when they see this symbol? What do Americans (south) feel this flag represents and why identify with it?

Thanks in advance

I'll second that. Others have better viewpoints to add to this than myself and warspite, both of us stuck without the proper cultural background to really "get" this issue.

The US Civil War had a plethora of root causes; some political, some economic, some ethical, etc... Some would argue that States Rights was the preeminent cause, Robert E. Lee's personal loyalty struggle (State or County) reflects some of the intricacies. A review of Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation notes that he did not free all the slaves, just those contained in Rebel States still resisting.

Notes on the Emancipation Proclamation from Wiki:

"It proclaimed the freedom of slaves in the ten states that were still in rebellion.[2] Because it was issued under the President's war powers, it necessarily excluded areas not in rebellion - it applied to more than 3 million of the 4 million slaves in the U.S. at the time. The Proclamation was based on the president's constitutional authority as commander in chief of the armed forces;[3] it was not a law passed by Congress. The Proclamation also ordered that suitable persons among those freed could be enrolled into the paid service of United States' forces, and ordered the Union Army (and all segments of the Executive branch) to "recognize and maintain the freedom of" the ex-slaves. The Proclamation did not compensate the owners, did not outlaw slavery, and did not grant citizenship to the ex-slaves (called freedmen). It made the eradication of slavery an explicit war goal, in addition to the goal of reuniting the Union.[4] Around 20,000 to 50,000 slaves in regions where rebellion had already been subdued were immediately emancipated. It could not be enforced in areas still under rebellion, but as the Union army took control of Confederate regions, the Proclamation provided the legal framework for freeing more than 3 million slaves in those regions. Prior to the Proclamation, in accordance with the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850, escaped slaves were either returned to their masters or held in camps as contraband for later return. The Proclamation applied only to slaves in Confederate-held lands; it did not apply to those in the four slave states that were not in rebellion (Kentucky, Maryland, Delaware, and Missouri, which were unnamed), nor to Tennessee (unnamed but occupied by Union troops since 1862) and lower Louisiana (also under occupation), and specifically excluded those counties of Virginia soon to form the state of West Virginia. Also specifically excluded (by name) were some regions already controlled by the Union army. Emancipation in those places would come after separate state actions and/or the December 1865 ratification of the Thirteenth Amendment, which made slavery and indentured servitude, except for those duly convicted of a crime, illegal everywhere subject to United States jurisdiction.[5]"

Can't say I have a dog in this fight -- my ancestors lived in Eastern Europe until the very early 1900s -- but I have spent a lot of time in the south, though I live in Ohio in the north.

Just about every small town here in Ohio has a "Civil War" memorial, and if you drill down, the carnage was huge. The Civil War ("War Between the States" in the South) killed more men than any American War before or since, and impoverished the South. Having traveled through many small southern towns, the same memorials (to different units, and statues wearing different uniforms) are almost mirror images of the ones found in the north. They are all cherished, still, by people who value sacrifice and there is a lot of pride on both sides.

I think it's unfortunate to distill everything down to slavery as most of the men fighting for the south were not slave owners; I think the war was seen by many of them as a states-rights issue and they fought for home and kin and way of life (yes, true that slavery was a way of life in the south. No excuses for that...)

But it pains me to see history itself under assault by this "controversy" especially by so many that just see it as an easy means of taking political advantage.

What do Americans (north) think?

I was born in the north.

I spent the first 35 years of my life living in the north.

I have now spent almost the last 15 years of my life living in the south.

Personally, I do not like the Confederate flag, or what it (in my mind) stood for.

I would prefer it were not flown over government buildings (over monuments in cemetaries, commemorating veterans, or in museums as historical artifacts I think is acceptable).

I have no issues with people flying them on private property, sporting bumper stickers displaying the Confederate flag, patches etc.

You see, I am a strong believer in the First Amendment (free speech).
I may not like your opinion, but I still believe that you have the right to express it.

Of course no one remembers Irish Slavery

Small excerpt below (note the 13th Amendment also put an end to Indentured Servitude):

"Although the Africans and Irish were housed together and were the property of the planter owners, the Africans received much better treatment, food and housing. In the British West Indies the planters routinely tortured white slaves for any infraction. Owners would hang Irish slaves by their hands and set their hands or feet afire as a means of punishment. To end this barbarity, Colonel William Brayne wrote to English authorities in 1656 urging the importation of Negro slaves on the grounds that, "as the planters would have to pay much more for them, they would have an interest in preserving their lives, which was wanting in the case of (Irish)...." many of whom, he charged, were killed by overwork and cruel treatment. African Negroes cost generally about 20 to 50 pounds Sterling, compared to 900 pounds of cotton (about 5 pounds Sterling) for an Irish. They were also more durable in the hot climate, and caused fewer problems. The biggest bonus with the Africans though, was they were NOT Catholic, and any heathen pagan was better than an Irish Papist. Irish prisoners were commonly sentenced to a term of service, so theoretically they would eventually be free. In practice, many of the slavers sold the Irish on the same terms as prisoners for servitude of 7 to 10 years."


The point being that for whatever the reason the "Rebel Flag" has become a political issue that one side or another feel is a "winning" argument. For the vast majority the point is irrelevant, it is the movement that counts.

One can find problems in the history of every country (or political party or religion), but to try and mandate "Cultural Cleansing" in the name of political correctness may not be the way to go - the question to ask is what is next?

Ooooo, modern day politics... Don't go that way guys, it will only end up locked however good the intention...

From someone born and raised in the South, I feel I should weigh in.

Not once in my life have I ever thought that the Stars and Bars represented slavery. To me it was all about my heritage as a Southerner and pride in my area. Unfortunately a very small minority of fools have taken the flag and used it for ill purposes. Which means that the flag has been perverted into something it was never intended to be.

Now because of the actions of a terrible few, my Southern heritage is being destroyed by the removal of what used to be a symbol of pride, and again I stress, not slavery. Many of my Southern friends feel the same way. It would be as if Scotland was no longer allowed to fly their flag at all and had to fly just the Union Jack instead. Not really a fair comparison but hopefully gets the point across.

Over 150 years since Fort Sumter and we are still fighting for our heritage. And NOT for a return of slavery.

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Ooooo, modern day politics... Don't go that way guys, it will only end up locked however good the intention...

Ok.

If I can put some historical perspective on this:
I am a first generation American.
My ancestors did not come to the United States until after the mid 1950s. I was born in 1965.

So from that perspective, none of us were here at the time of the Civil War, nor for most of the resulting follow on periods (Reconstruction, most of the civil rights struggles, etc).

So, I can say that neither I, nor my ancestors, nor my descendants played any part in, nor bear any responsibility for those events that occurred before we set foot in the United States.

[:D]

This discussion has been polite, but it is about current political issues and hence verbotten by Matrix's policies. In another forum, I would probably be weighing in, but I need to lock this before Matrix slaps my hand for letting it run.

Bill