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ORIGINAL: wdolson

First Terminus and then Treespider returns. Are we putting the band back together? [:)]

After two years I've finally settled my life into a manageable routine in the DC area, and have rediscovered some of my paper and cardboard true loves...

The Political point of view (no "terror bombing" but instead "precision bombing") went away real quick once they realized 1) precision bombing didn't work in Japan. 2) the only way to destroy Japan's industry WAS carpet bombing.

The political point of view was always: WIN THE DAMN WAR!!!!!...if a bunch of ENEMY died that was too damn bad.

The American peace at any cost movement died on 12/08/1941. Figuratively we're talking about one person here too.

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I'm not sure I entirely agree Bill. I suspect it had more to do with Arnold's dreams and politics to a degree. The Navy took high school grads and made them Sonar and RADAR techs with no problems. Heck till 1943 they had a pretty good pool of enlisted pilots. And of course in the aircrew world , the Navy didn't have ANY flying officers till the 1960's when they introduced the Naval Flight Officer program. Bombardier? The enlisted ordanceman (who loaded them). Navigator? The off duty pilot or a trained enlisted guy. (The USMC STILL trains enlisted navigators). RADAR operator in the back seat of a night fighter? Once again , a RADAR operator (usually a 1st class PO or a CPO). I see it more a "prestige issue" then technical ability. Most enlisted men in these jobs were high school graduates. So were most USAAF officers. When Arnold wanted to make all pilots college grads he was politely informed that if the Army conscripted every young college grad in the USA they still would not have enough. [:D]

There are plenty of people who weren't officers who could have made top notch radar operators, but the 20th AF had to train up as many people as possible in the field using a limited population of who was already on Saipan and Tinian. The more formal training programs draw from the entire service, have formal training facilities, have instructors who are known qualified on the equipment, and they have a screening process to select the candidates best suited to the job.

Initially they were throwing gunners already in theater at the radar and letting them try and figure it out. Gunners were not usually known for their intellectual ability. Many times they were volunteers for air service who didn't qualify for training with any particular technology.

We're talking about an emergency program to train up operators in the field. They didn't have the resources the state side training facilities had. They had to pull together a pool of people who were most likely going to figure out the technology and get them up to speed as quickly as possible. If taking a shotgun approach like that, your best bet is to select people who have gone through officer candidate school rather than gunners who in many cases failed to make the cut for radio operators, navigators, or bombardiers.

Many people who didn't qualify for OCS were quite capable of learning many things. My SO's father didn't have any formal training past 8th grade, but he became a forensic engine technician and under the GI bill he got into college with no high school and did quite well. He had to drop out due to life stuff. He later had an offer from Boeing that included them paying for his engineering degree, but my SO's mother hated Seattle so he didn't take the job.

Bill

ORIGINAL: spence

The Political point of view (no "terror bombing" but instead "precision bombing") went away real quick once they realized 1) precision bombing didn't work in Japan. 2) the only way to destroy Japan's industry WAS carpet bombing.

The political point of view was always: WIN THE DAMN WAR!!!!!...if a bunch of ENEMY died that was too damn bad.

The American peace at any cost movement died on 12/08/1941. Figuratively we're talking about one person here too.

Horse Puckey. Indiscriminate "Area Bombing" certainly did have 'political' ramifications.

"On 14 March during the initial fire raids, the Twentieth Air Force sent a message to Lemay stating that US 'editorial comment is beginning to wonder about blanket incendiary attacks upon cities therefore [we] urge you [to] continue hard hitting your present line that this destruction is necessary to eliminate home industries and that it is strategic bombing.' To drive home the point, the message concluded, 'Guard against anyone stating this is area bombing'"
Blankets of Fire, p157

ORIGINAL: wdolson

First Terminus and then Treespider returns. Are we putting the band back together? [:)]

I'll re-join. But you've got to get Mr. Fabulous.*



*= A Blues Brothers reference.[8D]

We're on a mission from God.[8D]

ORIGINAL: treespider

We're on a mission from God.[8D]

Or a mission from Glod.*


Bill


*Terry Pratchett reference [:D]

ORIGINAL: BlackhorseToo

ORIGINAL: wdolson

First Terminus and then Treespider returns. Are we putting the band back together? [:)]

I'll re-join. But you've got to get Mr. Fabulous.*



*= A Blues Brothers reference.[8D]

What happened to your previous sign in? Your post count? Your Black Horse Avatar? All Gone? [X(][:(]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

ORIGINAL: treespider

We're on a mission from God.[8D]

Or a mission from Glod.*


Bill


*Terry Pratchett reference [:D]

Or dog. [:D]

Welcome back, we need more of the old guard to come back.

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: BlackhorseToo

ORIGINAL: wdolson

First Terminus and then Treespider returns. Are we putting the band back together? [:)]

I'll re-join. But you've got to get Mr. Fabulous.*



*= A Blues Brothers reference.[8D]

What happened to your previous sign in? Your post count? Your Black Horse Avatar? All Gone? [X(][:(]

All gone, alas. I'll eventually resurrect the avatar.

*Terry Pratchett reference

I wish we could bring him back, too. Could we have Andrew Brown whip up a Discworld map in his honor?

ORIGINAL: BlackhorseToo

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: BlackhorseToo




I'll re-join. But you've got to get Mr. Fabulous.*



*= A Blues Brothers reference.[8D]

What happened to your previous sign in? Your post count? Your Black Horse Avatar? All Gone? [X(][:(]

All gone, alas. I'll eventually resurrect the avatar.

Sorry to hear that. [:(] Are you still a DC denizen? [:D]

Sorry to hear that. Are you still a DC denizen?

I am. And still working in the same building where we last met.

Which of ME-FL-DC-GM-WA-NE-IL-? is most home for you, this year? [:)]

ORIGINAL: BlackhorseToo

Sorry to hear that. Are you still a DC denizen?

I am. And still working in the same building where we last met.

Which of ME-FL-DC-GM-WA-NE-IL-? is most home for you, this year? [:)]

The southern part of "Il". On the "Mo" border, just outside of St. Louis. And this time for the foreseeable future. [:)]

Blackhorse we'll have to meet for lunch sometime. I work right next to NOMA station on the red line.

It may be interesting to know how these 'production' costs compare.

Of the B29 project it is said costs were about 3 billion 1944 dollars. Close to 4.000 were constructed at a price about 610.000 dollars each. Total production costs would be about 2.5 billion dollars. From the very undetailed sources I figure this is included with the total project costs. Source: The Pacific War Online Encyclopedia

This is more than costs for the total Manhattan Project. But that Manhattan Project certainly is in the same class as the B29 Project. Total costs for the full Manhattan Project are about 2 billion 1944 dollars. I think it's fair to say that's quite a bit bigger than just a huge research project. But not strange considering completely new industries and enrichment plants were developed, constructed and operated. That little plutonium needed did require a lot of uranium for which thousands of tons of ore had to be imported and treated. Source: The Costs of the Manhattan Project, by Brookings Inst.

If one only compares R&D of both new weapons (B29 vs. Nuclear Bomb) it's clear the Nuclear Bomb is in a different class from the B29. R&D for the B29 being about 0.5 billion and The Bomb still being about 2 billion.

ORIGINAL: treespider

Blackhorse we'll have to meet for lunch sometime. I work right next to NOMA station on the red line.

'Spider,

I'd like that. I'm by the Navy Yard station (and the Nats ballpark) on the Green Line.

ORIGINAL: BlackhorseToo

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: BlackhorseToo




I'll re-join. But you've got to get Mr. Fabulous.*



*= A Blues Brothers reference.[8D]

What happened to your previous sign in? Your post count? Your Black Horse Avatar? All Gone? [X(][:(]

All gone, alas. I'll eventually resurrect the avatar.

It's Blackhorse, Resurrection.

Apparently, the Forum Glods* have seen fit to bring The Blackhorse back to life. Thank you Glods! [&o]

Allons!


*= See wdolson post #27, this thread

[:D] Hooray!!!! [:D]