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RE: Question about conquering port with fleets in port
Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:53 am
by Joseignacio
ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge
Isn't it 2 per shipyard per turn? I thought if you only spent 1 per shipyard, say you built a single cruiser, you didn't get anything, only the "second" BP got saved.
You are both meaning the same, I think.
You need to
build two different build points for two different ships, but you
only pay for one, the other is free.
But actually the rules don't say anything about saving this BP, IMO it would be lost.
RE: Question about conquering port with fleets in port
Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:02 am
by Joseignacio
ORIGINAL: paulderynck
In FiF you'd need another ship in the queue because you only spend one BP per ship per turn. So with a shipyard you could advance two ships for one BP. An exception would be rushing a ship. A ship being repaired or on its second cycle may be advanced two turns instead of one for a cost of 3 BPs. If you did that at a shipyard, it would cost 2 BPs.
Without FiF, one shipyard can build a ship that costs 2 or more and you pay that cost less one. A ship that costs one (like a CA on its first cycle or being repaired) can be built for free if you spend at least one BP on some other ship. This can occur once each turn for each shipyard you have.
Is this a home rule of yours? AFAIK, shipyards are part of the set of pieces of FiF, so the rules of FiF should be applied unless specified otherwise.
Besides, I don't have all the sets of versions of RAW at hand (and there have been serious changes all along, true) but I checked 7.0 and there is no reference to Shipyards and in the latest I have from the (not yet 100% public) 8.XX series, shipyard management is only explained regarding this under the title "FiF option 40".
This is, the rules allow using shipyards and explains how to use them assuming you are using that option. If you are not, there is not additional ruling, so you need to stick to the Option 40 rules or home-rule.
RE: Question about conquering port with fleets in port
Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 9:10 am
by brian brian
Getting back to how to capture enemy ships in MWiF ... if you have the Unlimited Divisions optional turned on, you can try a second over-run of the French Fleet. Any ship that is overrun will have to rebase, and will be dis-organized after doing that. 60% of the ships in the first port will end up in that state, and the French might pick Oran for simplicity. Oran is not a city and might not be garrisoned when they do it....giving a 3 division invasion a decent chance of taking it, a bit higher if you risk the Alpini mountain division.
But overall it is worth recalling that captured ships go to the Repair Pool, so they are not free. In the WiF naval combat system, spending 2 scarce Italian Build Points on a Pilot to put in a NAV might actually accomplish more in the Mediterranean than spending the same 2 BP on a WWI French battleship, and the Italians generally don't need Cruiser reinforcements. The modern French BBs or a not-yet interned CV Bearn would possibly be worth it though.
RE: Question about conquering port with fleets in port
Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:21 am
by Joseignacio
ORIGINAL: brian brian
Getting back to how to capture enemy ships in MWiF ... if you have the Unlimited Divisions optional turned on, you can try a second over-run of the French Fleet. Any ship that is overrun will have to rebase, and will be dis-organized after doing that. 60% of the ships in the first port will end up in that state, and the French might pick Oran for simplicity. Oran is not a city and might not be garrisoned when they do it....giving a 3 division invasion a decent chance of taking it, a bit higher if you risk the Alpini mountain division.
But overall it is worth recalling that captured ships go to the Repair Pool, so they are not free. In the WiF naval combat system, spending 2 scarce Italian Build Points on a Pilot to put in a NAV might actually accomplish more in the Mediterranean than spending the same 2 BP on a WWI French battleship, and the Italians generally don't need Cruiser reinforcements. The modern French BBs or a not-yet interned CV Bearn would possibly be worth it though.
A WWI battleship that you get is one less the allies have (before Vichy) and one less it will have when/if there is a Free France.
But most important than that, it takes losses in sea battles. like 2 scs (plus possibly other units like convoys ...) can be an interesting reinforcement for an Italian fleet and take losses or can help protect exposed convoys carrying supply, for example.
If you can do it twice, it's two times as interesting.
Needing cruisers or not depends on optionals and strategies. For example, war in Northern Africa and sometimes in Greece depends heavily on supply and it's even more necessary to protect the sea zone if you are playing with optionals that force you to have conv or trs/amph to transport the supply.
Many times you can get short of cruisers (damaged or sunk) depending on this and of luck.
RE: Question about conquering port with fleets in port
Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:28 pm
by paulderynck
ORIGINAL: Joseignacio
ORIGINAL: paulderynck
In FiF you'd need another ship in the queue because you only spend one BP per ship per turn. So with a shipyard you could advance two ships for one BP. An exception would be rushing a ship. A ship being repaired or on its second cycle may be advanced two turns instead of one for a cost of 3 BPs. If you did that at a shipyard, it would cost 2 BPs.
Without FiF, one shipyard can build a ship that costs 2 or more and you pay that cost less one. A ship that costs one (like a CA on its first cycle or being repaired) can be built for free if you spend at least one BP on some other ship. This can occur once each turn for each shipyard you have.
Is this a home rule of yours? AFAIK, shipyards are part of the set of pieces of FiF, so the rules of FiF should be applied unless specified otherwise.
Besides, I don't have all the sets of versions of RAW at hand (and there have been serious changes all along, true) but I checked 7.0 and there is no reference to Shipyards and in the latest I have from the (not yet 100% public) 8.XX series, shipyard management is only explained regarding this under the title "FiF option 40".
This is, the rules allow using shipyards and explains how to use them assuming you are using that option. If you are not, there is not additional ruling, so you need to stick to the Option 40 rules or home-rule.
The Rush rule I referred to is in RAW8. (I'm not sure if it is in the original FiF rule in the 2008 Annual.) Yes playing Shipyards without FiF is a house rule because we like Shipyards but not FiF.
Using the Rush rule you could spend both the paid and the free BP on the same ship in FiF as long as the ship production cost yet to be paid exceeds one BP.
Without FiF you try to follow the rules for Shipyards but it is not important which port in the home country the Shipyard is placed in (other than vulnerability to enemy attack, of course). Without FiF you can spend both the paid and the free BP on any ship that costs more than 1 BP to repair or to build in it's present cycle.
RE: Question about conquering port with fleets in port
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:19 am
by brian brian
Well, the Italian Zara and Trento class heavy cruisers are so much better than the French cruisers I would just keep cycling them onto the map first if I needed more surface ships, which is rare. Second, I would build extra Convoy Points. The Richelieu, however, is an excellent thing to have on the Axis side. Drives the blue/khaki player nuts.