Matrix Games Forums

Just go and play DaBabes where there's more detail to it? [8|]

Vanilla level of abstraction is enough imho.

I always thought that the naval support device was like cranes, forklifts, admin personnel etc. To help at the dockyards, I'll be honest, I haven't really noticed a massive difference with having them around, not like aviation support which is anything else but abstract.

Actually after quickly reading through a bit of the manual it said that naval support helps with ship repairs (and we ALL want those to go faster).

So maybe naval support is pretty good after all...

DaBabes have bit more realism, as have been already said. Game abstracts lot of things and Naval support and port operations is just one of those abstractions.

I myself would not like adding more complex things in Naval support that IMHO would not add much into game.

ORIGINAL: SheperdN7

Actually after quickly reading through a bit of the manual it said that naval support helps with ship repairs (and we ALL want those to go faster).

So maybe naval support is pretty good after all...

Don't discount the load/unload assistance from Naval Support. It enables me to reload battleship caliber shells at a level 6 port, for example. And by speeding up general unloading of ships they can be on their way out of a dangerous port before the enemy can put together a SCTF to hit them. Every day counts ....

ORIGINAL: Reg

ORIGINAL: Yaab

I meant it is a squad device, just people, thus squad men cannot be lighters.

If you look at AA units they have 0 men in unit screen, just AA guns, but I understand they are actually guns and crews, sort like AFV, mot support and armored cars.

With Naval Support it is the other way around, and realism is somewhat broken. I guess it is because they have to function both as squads (ship repair) and items (lighters). I guess you could bump their load cost from i.e .15 to 100 to represent a lighter and naval support men.

When they couldn't find lighters, they built them locally. I ran across multiple examples of small boat yards springing up in remote locations when I was trawling the AWM archives (www.awm.gov.au) a while back.

For example....

ID number P04853.082
Collection type Photograph
Object type Black & white - Print silver gelatin
Maker United States Army Signal Corps
Place made Australia
Date made c 1943
Description Construction of a 38 foot fast supply boat, type 37, of the Small Ships Section, United States Army Services of Supply, Southwest Pacific Area (USA SOS SWPA). A sign on the wall reads 'Wear it with pride and back the attack. Subscribe for Liberty Loan'. Initially Australian ships were requisitioned and chartered by the Small Ships Section. Construction of ships for USA SOS SWPA commenced in Australia in 1942. Approximately 3000 vessels were constructed, including freighters, launches, tugs, towboats, lighters, rescue and salvage boats and a large number of barges. An additional 4000 lifeboats and dinghies were built. Around 3000 Australians enlisted in the Small Ships Section during the Second World War. They were not inducted members of the US Army, but were civilians attached to the Army. They were often too young, too old or physically ineligible to serve in the Australian armed forces. (This image is from the collection of Arthur James Carfax-Foster who served with the Small Ships Section from September 1943 until January 1946).
URL https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P04853.082

and in remote locations....

ID number 054086
Collection type Photograph
Object type Black & white
Physical description Black & white
Description BALASANA, NEW GUINEA, 1943-07-06. KEEL BEING SHAPED FOR A NEW VESSEL AT THE SHIPYARDS OF THE 1ST AUSTRALIAN WATER TRANSPORT GROUP (SMALL CRAFT) MAINTENANCE BASE.
URL https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/054086/

and.....

ID number 054089
Collection type Photograph
Object type Black & white
Physical description Black & white
Description BALASANA, NEW GUINEA, 1943-07-06. NEW VESSEL NEARING COMPLETION AT THE SHIPYARDS OF THE 1ST AUSTRALIAN WATER TRANSPORT GROUP (SMALL CRAFT) MAINTENANCE BASE.
URL https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/054089/

Nice find. I guess these ones should be created out of Resources. Just imagine: Resources + Naval Support = small craft creation. I at least Japan could finally strafe something...

Cool thread. Tks for posting!

Fred

Thread resurrection.

It was argued that naval support squads could create lighters out of materials (wood) available on the spot.

However, how do you get enough wood on atolls? Well, wood could be created from abstracted supply, that comes on ships. However, the game does not provide for supply expense for lighter creation. Thus, the cost of abstracted lighters is, in WITP:AE terms, 0 supplies. Plus, naval support squads work (boost load/unload rates for individual ships) even if no supplies are delivered to a base.

Drop 30 naval support squads on a barren atoll. A ship comes to unload an LCU. Voila, the ship is unloaded using higher unload rates, even though the naval support squads have no lighters created yet!

Actually, the fact the naval support doesn't work in bases with SPS port 0 may be a GOOD THING, though a bit harsh

Manual p. 215 says this about airfields level 0

In addition to the normal costs, it takes 10 times longer than normal
to increase a current size 0 airfield with a SPS of zero to a size of 1. These size zero locations
were very unsuitable for airfields (such as Wau, which was built on the side of a mountain)

Thus, those locations were also unsuitable for ports as well. Those locations may not have local wood, or have a confined shipyard space to create wooden lighters etc.

Making naval support squads work at 50% efficiency in port SPS 0 would make a good compromise.

Creation of wooden vessels was probably done with civilian labour for the most part, maybe some experienced boat builders were drafted into the services to direct the less knowledgeable, but local labour would have been available. This is the essence of Light Industry, which requires few tools to create things. If anything is missing from the game it is LI available at every location in small amounts. Local fishermen and hunters can provide food from their efforts, and others can gather plant materials for food or construction. Even an atoll could have a level 1 AF with huts made of pallet boards and thatched palm leaves for the roof.

I don't worry about the game abstractions too much - the logistics is already far beyond anything I have seen in other games, so trying to make finer detail out of it is making more work for the player. I haven't the time to increase the game turns with more clicks.

BBfanboy wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2024 12:52 pm Creation of wooden vessels was probably done with civilian labour for the most part, maybe some experienced boat builders were drafted into the services to direct the less knowledgeable, but local labour would have been available. This is the essence of Light Industry, which requires few tools to create things. If anything is missing from the game it is LI available at every location in small amounts. Local fishermen and hunters can provide food from their efforts, and others can gather plant materials for food or construction. Even an atoll could have a level 1 AF with huts made of pallet boards and thatched palm leaves for the roof.

I don't worry about the game abstractions too much - the logistics is already far beyond anything I have seen in other games, so trying to make finer detail out of it is making more work for the player. I haven't the time to increase the game turns with more clicks.

I'm with you. Too many people want to turn the game into a simulation.

Slight tangent here but in truth I'm not a great fan of the latest version 27, I don't see the point of all the extra off bases, there not neccesaary. I don't know about any of the other changes in 27 as I'm not currently playing it, and won't until most of the big bugs get ironed out.

I have another thought.

When you ship aircraft by xAKs, the aircraft are crated, and they are unloaded at a destinantion disabled. It takes some time to assemble aircraft again so they can fly missions.

Let's say you now fly naval supoprt squads by transport aircraft to a base. Once the squads arrive, shouldn't they be disabled for a few turns before they can perform their functions? They should spend those few days building lighter barges at the destinantion.

I don't have any problem with naval support in amphibious TF, because those TFs load at 80% efficiency , and you could always pretend those 20% are occupied by abstracted lighters.

I know this rambling is beyond the scope of the current game/patches. It is just one of those things that make operational tempo too high in WITP:AE.

Yaab wrote: Fri Jan 19, 2024 8:08 am I have another thought.

When you ship aircraft by xAKs, the aircraft are crated, and they are unloaded at a destinantion disabled. It takes some time to assemble aircraft again so they can fly missions.

Let's say you now fly naval supoprt squads by transport aircraft to a base. Once the squads arrive, shouldn't they be disabled for a few turns before they can perform their functions? They should spend those few days building lighter barges at the destinantion.

I don't have any problem with naval support in amphibious TF, because those TFs load at 80% efficiency , and you could always pretend those 20% are occupied by abstracted lighters.

I know this rambling is beyond the scope of the current game/patches. It is just one of those things that make operational tempo too high in WITP:AE.

Are you implying that the men in the naval squads are disassembled and have to have their arms and legs attached like the crated aircraft have their wings. propellers, and other parts removed? The naval support squads are men, they are not equipment like cranes, forklifts, or other needed things like cargo nets. The equipment like the cranes, forklifts, cargo nets and other equipment is represented by the port size which also represents the inherent repair facilities available at the base so a player does not have to build things like machine shops, welding shops, plumbing shops, vehicle repair shops and so on to repair the cranes and other equipment represented by the port facilities. The port size would also include the lighters, barges, and other small craft.

kinda agree with RJ here: pretty much both sides commandeered craft as they needed.

But I see what Yaab is saying ... do the NS units just comprise the men, or do they include the equipment (boats) as well. I can't recall any dev making any statement about that in the past.

My thoughts have been this is all tied into the port size. Meaning, the port size determines how many lighters and small craft are available, and thus you have limits of loading no matter how many NS you have. So, the lighters and other craft are being built as part of the port improvements.

This is just me here ... it's how I have always reconciled it in my head during my games ...

Alfred affirmed that Port size includes a lighter component to unload ships that are not docked - otherwise those non-amphib loaded ships would not unload at all!

RangerJoe wrote: Fri Jan 19, 2024 12:35 pm
Are you implying that the men in the naval squads are disassembled and have to have their arms and legs attached like the crated aircraft have their wings. propellers, and other parts removed? The naval support squads are men, they are not equipment like cranes, forklifts, or other needed things like cargo nets. The equipment like the cranes, forklifts, cargo nets and other equipment is represented by the port size which also represents the inherent repair facilities available at the base so a player does not have to build things like machine shops, welding shops, plumbing shops, vehicle repair shops and so on to repair the cranes and other equipment represented by the port facilities. The port size would also include the lighters, barges, and other small craft.

You see, if you put a big USN BF with 500 Naval Support on an island with port level 0, you get:

- nothing in loading/unloading ships as the port total turnover is just 100 supply points per turn.
- a whopping 2500 rearm level which lets you reload 12inch shells (1000lb each) with no cranes, forklifts etc. Similar rearm level you normally achieve with port level 7 when ther is 0 naval support present. Yet, those naval support men can somehow load those shells on heavy CAs and BBs

To keep at least some semblance of realism, naval support squads in bases with port level 0 should do nothing, just consume supplies , enjoy the beaches or help unload engineer squads (but probably not engineer vehicles).

Actually, 30 naval support in port level 0 is enough to reload all heavy Allied DP guns (5inch/127mm). You can make string of such undeveloped bases so big ships can always top up their AA ammo in hot areas.

Imagine if you had to first dump an engineer unit on such bases first with a heavy chance of an engineer vehicle being lost during the unload.

So in a way, the bug that makes naval support not showing in ports developed at 0(0) bases somehow feels like a non-bug.

You can lift the engine out of a vehicle using an A-frame made out of wood and a block-and-tackle to provide the mechanical advantage. A 1000 lb shell would be no different to lift if you had a sling that kept the shell from falling out. A raft of empty fuel drums could serve as the lighter and the ships themselves would have boat cranes or other lifting tackle to get the shells aboard. I see no problem with naval support doing their thing with some rope, chains, pulleys and other hand-operated gear. I have used a vehicle winch and pulleys to pull a much heavier vehicle out of a ditch. Stuff takes longer to do by hand but it can be done.

Yaab wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 4:56 pm

RangerJoe wrote: Fri Jan 19, 2024 12:35 pm
Are you implying that the men in the naval squads are disassembled and have to have their arms and legs attached like the crated aircraft have their wings. propellers, and other parts removed? The naval support squads are men, they are not equipment like cranes, forklifts, or other needed things like cargo nets. The equipment like the cranes, forklifts, cargo nets and other equipment is represented by the port size which also represents the inherent repair facilities available at the base so a player does not have to build things like machine shops, welding shops, plumbing shops, vehicle repair shops and so on to repair the cranes and other equipment represented by the port facilities. The port size would also include the lighters, barges, and other small craft.

You see, if you put a big USN BF with 500 Naval Support on an island with port level 0, you get:

- nothing in loading/unloading ships as the port total turnover is just 100 supply points per turn.
- a whopping 2500 rearm level which lets you reload 12inch shells (1000lb each) with no cranes, forklifts etc. Similar rearm level you normally achieve with port level 7 when ther is 0 naval support present. Yet, those naval support men can somehow load those shells on heavy CAs and BBs

I unthinkingly did a google search for 'muscular navy men' to post something here as a gag. I need to grab some eye-bleach now instead.