Matrix Games Forums

This is your suggestion:

Here's a slightly different one, where the Sub Dive % starts lower than in your suggestion, and the Real Diving % decreases at a more gradual rate.

I'm not sure of any changes at the moment, it needs some thought, but I welcome any thoughts you all have on this.

A little bit offtopic, but in 1.07 i found the transports still avoid getting shot wayyyy to much.
If i'm pounding helpless transports with naval vessels they shouldn't stand a chance.
Imo lower the damage taken(since there's alot more of them in number and tonnage to hit)in exchange for lowering or even removing the chance to avoid damage.

With subs it should be the other way around, easier to slip away , but when hit, you're toast(as only 1 or a few is represented).
It's just the trick to find a good balance.

ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre
Here's a slightly different one, where the Sub Dive % starts lower than in your suggestion, and the Real Diving % decreases at a more gradual rate.

I'm not sure of any changes at the moment, it needs some thought, but I welcome any thoughts you all have on this.

I changed it to what is seen below to run some tests, and now the German subs do not dive at all [:(]
I wanted to check with you to see if this looks correct, and if it does then I know I need to look for what I screwed up somewhere else.

I've run a test my side with the same settings and they are diving, not always but quite often.

The only thing I can think is whether you've remembered to change the other Majors they will be fighting to the same settings?

Ok thanks ! I'll keep working on it.

One thing I did see what was that if they have say 3 Destroyers around them, although there will be a dive message they may not actually move from their current hex, so I don't know if that might be what you experienced?

They are still protected from damage when this occurs, they just don't move away.

v1.00.06-v1.00.08/ FOW - ON

Up to now I had no problems with the U-boat war. On an average I have one complete loss per year of war in the Atlantic . This seems adequate to me. If the Allies discovers a submarine, they hunt it very strictly. However, a damaged boat reaches very often the French coast (and one or two coastal bombers are glad about possible pursuers). The first breakthrough in the Atlantic from Germany is really a little tricky. But also here quite a lot of misfortune boats could reach a saving port again.

Meetings with several destroyers and a carrier ship are often deadly. But this is hardly unrealistic. I have gained good experience not to change the positions of the boats directly on a Convoy. After a stopover in the Silent mode I strike once more at a distant place. [8D]

there will be a dive message they may not actually move from their current hex, so I don't know if that might be what you experienced?

No that is not it, it is definitely something I did so I don't want to bother you with it [unless maybe way off in the future when we have nothing else better to do and I still haven't solved it [;)]]. I even set it to 100% and still no dives, but I ran the same tests using the stock campaign and it dives as intended.

I'm honestly not sure how else the subs could be edited so that they never dive, so that is odd.

Perhaps use the export/import data functions to import relevant data fields from the main campaign into your own, so that hopefully that will strip out anything that isn't working from yours?

ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre

Here's a slightly different one, where the Sub Dive % starts lower than in your suggestion, and the Real Diving % decreases at a more gradual rate.

I'm not sure of any changes at the moment, it needs some thought, but I welcome any thoughts you all have on this.

Difficultly to balance this well. If the submarines are used as fleet ships in offensive operations, Englishmen and Canadians would also like to put sometimes an effect hit and not only hunt disappearing phantoms. If the submarines are attached on the Convoys, the German would also like to get over a game turn at the buffet without finding remains of the sub already at the first enemy contact.

Perhaps, it could be thought to use the present "Silent Move" as "Regular Move" also for the attacks on convoys. On the other side ships suitable for a sub hunt could receive a sort of additive detection. I fancy this as a virtual recon radius around a unit in whose overlapping points with other units the likelyhood of a submarine detection is increased in each case. Then new "Silent Move" would be an extremely slow movement with a raised likelyhood of damage avoidance (instead of "emergency diving" now "contact lost") but without own defence fire. Thus remains only the "Cruise" movement with a normal visibility for submarines. Only a thought. . .[8D]

I've played the allies in each version with FOW=on. I"m not a big fan of the subs "diving" since it feels gamey. Most of the sub combat took place around convoys which are not represented in the game so in the game the allies have hunter killer packs of DDs which roam around the Atlantic looking for subs. Hunter Killer packs randomly searching for subs did not work in either war but it's what the allies do here.

What I try to do with subs is if I can surround them with ships. They can't move away in the Axis turn if they're surrounded and I can whittle them down even if they "dive" away from damage some percentage of the time. Of course, that also feels gamey to have a sub unable to move in the mid-atlantic for several weeks because it's surrounded by ships. Even friendly subs can be ships that block the enemy sub from leaving even though subs cannot attack each other. IN my current version .08 game I have a German sub trapped in port in Sardinia by a US Sub, a light cruiser and a DD.

Surrounding a sub and trapping it is one way to dedicate a lot of resources and is not that far off base from a historical outcome.

Interesting perspective but I'm not really dedicating a lot of resources since I already have the ships in question. All they're really doing is randomly sailing around anyway.

Playing on beginner, no adjustment for AI, Fog of War = ON.

The first few games, my Axis Navy attempted aggressive convoy interdiction, with both subs & surface raiders. They sustained very heavy losses.[:@]

Changing tactics, I was able to sink convoys at a slightly lower rate by:

Using silent & cruise modes.

Adjusting my evasion tactics.

The ships sneak out of the North Sea, avoiding straight line movement, to avoid detection. I will follow a path successfully taken by one of my units moved earlier in the turn.

Having multiple ships in proximity draws the Allied Navy, as does raiding the same spot. "Hit 'em where they ain't," seems to work for me, at this level. [:D]

It takes longer to break into the target area, and convoy losses are slightly lower but I suffer considerably less damage. Most of the time a sub is spotted, it sustains damage, but is not sunk; I send it back for a refit. I frequently sneak out moving North, a few hexes west of the Axis-Norway route. [:'(]

I avoid committing capital ships against the Allied Navy, unless I have air cover (with Naval Bombers...havent really had the MPP's to try covering with lots of Land Based Air; these assets are needed elsewhere (Russia, Balkans, N. Africa). Surface raiders have a hard time, but subs do ok. I only have 3-4 games as Axis (with this approach, and have not played beyond 1942). [:-]

I assume over time, Allied ASW upgrades, and other research will make things tougher, even with Advanced Subs.[8|]

The AI did a good job of making me pay a LOT more attention to my ships, but seems to leave room (at this level) for Axis Naval Operations.[&o][&o][&o][&o]

Hope this helps.

You could have a FoW button for land and one for water.

I'm honestly not sure how else the subs could be edited so that they never dive, so that is odd.

Me neither, and I didn't try to do it, it was some accident by a rookie messing around in the editor.

But, just for laughs, I thought I would let you know that in a lapse of attention, I saved over my file and lost what I was working on. I'm not good at backing up, but I had last backed up the files on 8-11. So I started from there and manually redid all the changes I made since then. Only two days work [:@]

I just started a new game and would you know, the subs are now diving. [X(] Mistake solved !

I'm glad it's fixed, but feel for you about having to redo the work! [:(]

Hi Bill - I wanted to report the results of one case. In the inset are the settings I used from the beginning of this game. Early in the game it seemed like maybe the subs were diving 70% of the time, but I never had any of them corralled like I do in this screen shot in order to be able to get a good result for the numbers.

So in this shot I've got six Carriers surrounding a sub. It looks like the sub is at level 1, but I don't know if there is FOW involved. The US CV's are at ASW Level 4, and the UK CV is at ASW Level 3. [I mucked around with the Research stuff, so I don't know if the display is the same, my ASW level shows on the right of the three possible research levels].

In this instance, all the CV's attacked and five of them resulted in a dive, the one non-dive resulted in the sub [7] losing [6] leaving it with [1]. 83% dives. If the sub is at L1, then this doesn't seem correct, but I don't know if it is due to something I mucked up or not.

Thanks, I'll run a test and see if I get a similar result. I hope not as that does sound very wrong!