Matrix Games Forums

Vom Rom:

WiR is great but it just covers the EF. 3R on the other hand covers the entire European/North African theatres. And best of all it's free. . .

I think it's stealing to take it from underdogs. I had it once, paying full price, and it ended up at Goodwill. I suppose "if" I was vehemently hating it I would go the purist route and destroy it as opposed to making it a tax writeoff and having some poor unfortunate despise wargaming because of buying it at Goodwill. Maybe someday somebody will make a weekly-based WIR type game on the global scale. Obviously GG isn't goin that route, as he's doing another WIR basically. He's going after 10 mile hexes. I wonder if that'll be weekly turns? I might be difficult to hold much of anything if you have weekly turns and 10 mile hexes. I hope he'll incorporate some form of march movement, that might make for an interesting twist to the WIR line.

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
Hmm computer Third Reich.

I have heard such nasty comments about the AI, but then again, me personally, I could always enjoy playing it solo against myself hotseat for that matter. Assuming the game works.

The Advanced board is considerably better done as well ie certain map glitches are eliminated. If the computer version is a faithful copy of the board game complete with exact renderings, then the map will have merely faithully recreated glitches that will irritate exactly the sort of person that will pick computer Third Reich over the much simpler to play Strategic Command (simpler is not automatically bad, it merely is a state or condition).

So for my money, what would Matrix be expected to do with computer Third Reich exactly?

Les the Sarge 9-1: Hi

3rR is now at v1.38. Most of the AI complaints and problems with the game have been fixed. In hours of play I haven't experienced a single CTD or game freeze. . .

Well, what did Matrix do with Steel Panthers? Considering their experience and knowledge base, I would imagine they could do quite a bit, such as map upgrade, new counters, mouse scroll addition, AI tweaks, implement new AI rountines, better looking interface, etc, etc. . .

Originally posted by Charles_22
Vom Rom:

I think it's stealing to take it from underdogs. I had it once, paying full price, and it ended up at Goodwill. I suppose "if" I was vehemently hating it I would go the purist route and destroy it as opposed to making it a tax writeoff and having some poor unfortunate despise wargaming because of buying it at Goodwill. Maybe someday somebody will make a weekly-based WIR type game on the global scale. Obviously GG isn't goin that route, as he's doing another WIR basically. He's going after 10 mile hexes. I wonder if that'll be weekly turns? I might be difficult to hold much of anything if you have weekly turns and 10 mile hexes. I hope he'll incorporate some form of march movement, that might make for an interesting twist to the WIR line.

Stealing? The underdogs is an abandonware site. This site is very well known and respected (and the only site from which I obtain such games). It clearly states that if any company objects to any game it carries, it will remove that game. 3rR is still being offered, because no company has objected to it being offered.

The only games the underdog carries are those games that are no longer being published and/or have been abandoned by their publishers.

The purpose of copyright is to protect the creative work of its creator; it is not intended to HIDE or keep that product from the public.

If a product has been abandoned, there is no law that specifies that product must be kept from the public. Therefore, the game 3rR has been abandoned by the publisher; it is available free (no money is asked for it); and it is available to be freely enjoyed.

This is completely different from warez sites which carry games that you can still buy in stores (and which I do consider to be stealing).

The latest 3rR v1.38 is actually very well done, and the AI will give you a run for your money. It is still the best grand European WWII strategy game on the market.

Originally posted by Von Rom
pasternakski: Are you playing 3R with v1.21? There have been 10 additional patches since that version came out. I kid you not.

I am playing 3R v1.38 - there have been a TON of fixes since v1.21. If you download the underdog version of 3R, it contains the v1.38 patch.

This patch solved most of the problems with the game, and the AI is very good now. . .

I know, I'm an idiot. I meant version 1.38. I guess after UV I'm just patched out. I have no problems either, and the AI is one of the best in the business.

Von Rom:

Stealing? The underdogs is an abandonware site. This site is very well known and respected (and the only site from which I obtain such games). It clearly states that if any company objects to any game it carries, it will remove that game. 3rR is still being offered, because no company has objected to it being offered.

I sort of understand that reasoning, afterall I have at one time tried to copy something from them after buying that line. I did at least once have to game I was copying, but it wouldn't work anyway. I started reasoning far better about their line however. for example, if somebody placed a nude photo of one of your relatives on the internet, without thier foreknowledge, would it be completely ethical to them to say they'd take it down if those photographed objected? Hardly. I know that's a little apples and oranges, but to take somebody's data, without ANY property rights to the object and say you'll remove it from use or sight if the original owner objects, just doesn't cut it. The only close to ethical thing they could do is make efforts ON THEIR OWn, to contact whoever has the siftware rights. Failure to contact them or disapproval removes it's considered being featured.

I also object to that website on another more trivial nature. Originally their concept was to highlight games that deserved more recognition but were little known, however, their library is often wrought now with things that were easily available at the time they were out and were heavily advertised at the time as well. In essence their aim has become pretty convuluted. What will they have next, Buffy cd's?

The purpose of copyright is to protect the creative work of its creator; it is not intended to HIDE or keep that product from the public.

No, the purpose of the software is how the creator sees fit. If it's not in publication it's because the creator wishes it not to be so. You're operating from the vantagepoint that somehow the public has a right to soemthing which was once useable to the general public, and it's just not so. Suppose for example that some porn star created a video before they had repented of those ways, and now somebody else of their own volition started distributing that old film through the internet. Does the former porn star have a right to their own property anymore, to where the can hide their old sins if they so wish? I'm not saying I'm a defender of porn stars, former or otherwise, but just trying to say that no matter how trivial or disgusting the material may be, it is their own property afterall. I'm sorry, but I don't break into somebody's house taking their property, and then say they can have it if they object, without being guilty of stealing.

If a product has been abandoned, there is no law that specifies that product must be kept from the public. Therefore, the game 3rR has been abandoned by the publisher; it is available free (no money is asked for it); and it is available to be freely enjoyed.

No, true abandonment, would be signing over their rights over to somebody else (although we'd call that selling). They do it all the time in Hollywood, why is this such a difficult concept for software?

This is completely different from warez sites which carry games that you can still buy in stores (and which I do consider to be stealing).

The only difference is that one is making money while another is not, or, at least, that's what they'll tell you. Let's llok at another scenario. Suppose someone made a Pong II or something, and also assume they made it 20 years after the original. Well, isn't it possible that as the creator, that your first version may had been such a disgrace that the future selling of the new version could suffer badly when they remember you're the saem creator? Haven't youi a right to keep peopel who never paid for it from distributing it more than it's original run. The bottom line is that thieves always get things free, and then when they're locked up they're trying to say how they "found" it or somebody else gave it to them, or the owner said they could have it.

I used to think somewhat along the same lines as you, as I can't stand the rigid copyright insanity in the music industry, but the argument is the same. If they want to choke on their music being so precious and my not even considering buying it for that reason, more power to them. I personally think artists would be better off contributing to the betterment of music by setting it free so to speak. IOW, charging for it, but willing to ley people make copies for personal use on their tape player etc. I have seen copyright proclamations which suggest you can't even do that!

I think, the more beautiful the music, the more likely you'll let everyone share it, as though, it's so lovely, I can't keep it to myself, so let the poor child have one too, but that's just my idealistic self. It's one of those sort of things somewhat similar to the whole SPWAW thing. They did so much work on it, that people often bought the MC's simply because they felt crooked taking so much work for free.

In the end though, we have no right to "help them be generous" in giving something to ourselves, or others, that is theirs and not ours to give.

Here's one last example for you. Suppose somebody had a download on a porn site for SPWAW. Is it understandable that in order to keep from being associated to approval of porn, that you'd object to their having that download? And yet, though it is free, it is free from only approved places, and if Matrix would allow disgusting websites to host downlaods of their game, they'd have a screw loose. Same with any software, even if it's expressed as free, the creator if he has any sense, would probably still have the power to object to just where it was available for free. In such a case, surely a site like underdogs would be less liable to the owner and I suppose it might be lawful for them to await his disapproval, but certainly more ethical for them to seek his, but the vast majority of the underdog aoftware has been in no way, shape, or form, been cleared by the owner as FREE to anyone, it's just not available.

think it over....

Originally posted by Von Rom
If a product has been abandoned, there is no law that specifies that product must be kept from the public. Therefore, the game 3rR has been abandoned by the publisher; it is available free (no money is asked for it); and it is available to be freely enjoyed.

Under current U.S. copyright law, abandonware is illegal. Just because a copyright is not longer being actively enforced does not mean that the copyright is expired. Copyrighted work can only enter the public domain under one of two circumstances:

1. The copyright expires, which takes 75+ years

or

2. The author of the work explicitly gives permission for others to use the work for free (e.g. freeware).

Although abandonware is illegal, no one gets in trouble for it as long as the copyrights are no longer enforced (like at underdogs). And most companies are not going to spend thousands of dollars to enforce a copyright on a twenty year old piece of software. Hasbro is not going to come after you for playing an abandonware copy of Third Reich because there's no money in it for them.

Phooey looks like my post got lost in cyberspace.

Long story short, I have seen computer Third Reich, the AI was deplorable. But it can be played solo I guess.

Glad to hear it might not have trouble with XP.

As a game though, as complex a game as it is, and assuming only a Third Reich fan would play it, it should be noted that most Third Reich players have long since migrated to Advanced Third Reich and beyond.

Not that, that makes computer Third Reich a bad game, but it will after all be fundementally different in rules structure.

That said, it will impact the potential for marketing this game (should anyone be actually assuming there is any future in it).

I like Strategic Command primarily for it's ease of play. But it takes mere seconds (over at Battlefront) to establish that most want "more" in their game experience with it.
They essentially want SC to be A3R in many respect (when not busy claiming they want it to look more like Clash of Steel).

All things considered, what would anyone be expecting Matrix to do with this game. I don't see it being converted into "Advanced" Third Reich PC myself.

I might just settle for grabbing my buddies unwanted copy and checking out what the patches have to offer. But I would be playing it with the same level of interest, I would play Squad Leader PC when I long ago converted to Advanced Squad Leader.

Hmm now my first posts seems to be there (I am using my sister's PC so I blame it hehe).

Originally posted by pasternakski
I know, I'm an idiot. I meant version 1.38. I guess after UV I'm just patched out. I have no problems either, and the AI is one of the best in the business.

LOL

You said it!

Even my patches have patches LOL

Originally posted by jnier
Under current U.S. copyright law, abandonware is illegal. Just because a copyright is not longer being actively enforced does not mean that the copyright is expired. Copyrighted work can only enter the public domain under one of two circumstances:

1. The copyright expires, which takes 75+ years

or

2. The author of the work explicitly gives permission for others to use the work for free (e.g. freeware).

Although abandonware is illegal, no one gets in trouble for it as long as the copyrights are no longer enforced (like at underdogs). And most companies are not going to spend thousands of dollars to enforce a copyright on a twenty year old piece of software. Hasbro is not going to come after you for playing an abandonware copy of Third Reich because there's no money in it for them.

Actually, there is a case in the court of appeals that is dealing with just this issue, to wit: Does someone have the right to offer free to the public a product (in this case books) that the previous copyright owner has both stopped publishing and abandoned.

In the lower courts the issue has been evenly split. Hopefully, the higher courts will settle the issue once and for all.

In the law, there is such a thing as fair use. The law never intended copyright to be used by the owner of a work (whether it's a computer game or book) to stop its printing and withhold it from use by the public. In fact the courts are dealing with this issue this year.

So in fact, depending on the ruling, those companies who have stopped publishing games and forbid anyone else from offering them free, may in fact wind up being on the wrong side of the law. . .

Hmmm seasonal turn complaint....no way to respond to that in my opinion. TR is what it is, and that means seasonal turns.

It would be easier to design your own game and call it something like Strategic Command:) Come to think of if, someone did that recently. Redesigning TR PC in a radical way though seems unlikely to be worth it.

WiR hmmm I have downloaded it, installed it and immediately unloaded it. Likely the same reason I did the same with Clash of Steel. Antigue un friendly interface.

Although I am unsure if I was hasty with WiR. I recently re downloaded the latest version of PaCWar as well.
But I can only say, if a computer version is less appealing than a board game equal, I will in a lot of cases, remain playing the board game.

My only significant complaints with TR PC is A it isn't Advanced TR and B the AI was horrid. If the patches add something to the game that might help.

Copywrite? Hmm I will download an old game with no moral reservations if I know this game is NOT going to be on sale anywhere at all. I don't see finding yesterdays junk (to some) on par with downloading commercially viable games off of KaZaa.

I am something of a writer, and I have seen a lot of material on the subject of copywrite though. The only real easy statement you can make about copywrite, is it is keeping lawyers busy and rich.

Final thoughts for me on TR PC...if if looks nice, runs nice, and can be obtained for next to no effort, it will have some promise.

But don't wait around for Matrix to spend a lot of effort fiddling with an old game they won't be able to actually realistically sell. My advice, if you can get it (from say Underdogs) consider yourself lucky to get it at all.

Originally posted by Charles_22
Von Rom:

I sort of understand that reasoning, afterall I have at one time tried to copy something from them after buying that line. I did at least once have to game I was copying, but it wouldn't work anyway. I started reasoning far better about their line however. for example, if somebody placed a nude photo of one of your relatives on the internet, without thier foreknowledge, would it be completely ethical to them to say they'd take it down if those photographed objected? Hardly. I know that's a little apples and oranges, but to take somebody's data, without ANY property rights to the object and say you'll remove it from use or sight if the original owner objects, just doesn't cut it. The only close to ethical thing they could do is make efforts ON THEIR OWn, to contact whoever has the siftware rights. Failure to contact them or disapproval removes it's considered being featured.

I also object to that website on another more trivial nature. Originally their concept was to highlight games that deserved more recognition but were little known, however, their library is often wrought now with things that were easily available at the time they were out and were heavily advertised at the time as well. In essence their aim has become pretty convuluted. What will they have next, Buffy cd's?



No, the purpose of the software is how the creator sees fit. If it's not in publication it's because the creator wishes it not to be so. You're operating from the vantagepoint that somehow the public has a right to soemthing which was once useable to the general public, and it's just not so. Suppose for example that some porn star created a video before they had repented of those ways, and now somebody else of their own volition started distributing that old film through the internet. Does the former porn star have a right to their own property anymore, to where the can hide their old sins if they so wish? I'm not saying I'm a defender of porn stars, former or otherwise, but just trying to say that no matter how trivial or disgusting the material may be, it is their own property afterall. I'm sorry, but I don't break into somebody's house taking their property, and then say they can have it if they object, without being guilty of stealing.



No, true abandonment, would be signing over their rights over to somebody else (although we'd call that selling). They do it all the time in Hollywood, why is this such a difficult concept for software?



The only difference is that one is making money while another is not, or, at least, that's what they'll tell you. Let's llok at another scenario. Suppose someone made a Pong II or something, and also assume they made it 20 years after the original. Well, isn't it possible that as the creator, that your first version may had been such a disgrace that the future selling of the new version could suffer badly when they remember you're the saem creator? Haven't youi a right to keep peopel who never paid for it from distributing it more than it's original run. The bottom line is that thieves always get things free, and then when they're locked up they're trying to say how they "found" it or somebody else gave it to them, or the owner said they could have it.

I used to think somewhat along the same lines as you, as I can't stand the rigid copyright insanity in the music industry, but the argument is the same. If they want to choke on their music being so precious and my not even considering buying it for that reason, more power to them. I personally think artists would be better off contributing to the betterment of music by setting it free so to speak. IOW, charging for it, but willing to ley people make copies for personal use on their tape player etc. I have seen copyright proclamations which suggest you can't even do that!

I think, the more beautiful the music, the more likely you'll let everyone share it, as though, it's so lovely, I can't keep it to myself, so let the poor child have one too, but that's just my idealistic self. It's one of those sort of things somewhat similar to the whole SPWAW thing. They did so much work on it, that people often bought the MC's simply because they felt crooked taking so much work for free.

In the end though, we have no right to "help them be generous" in giving something to ourselves, or others, that is theirs and not ours to give.

Here's one last example for you. Suppose somebody had a download on a porn site for SPWAW. Is it understandable that in order to keep from being associated to approval of porn, that you'd object to their having that download? And yet, though it is free, it is free from only approved places, and if Matrix would allow disgusting websites to host downlaods of their game, they'd have a screw loose. Same with any software, even if it's expressed as free, the creator if he has any sense, would probably still have the power to object to just where it was available for free. In such a case, surely a site like underdogs would be less liable to the owner and I suppose it might be lawful for them to await his disapproval, but certainly more ethical for them to seek his, but the vast majority of the underdog aoftware has been in no way, shape, or form, been cleared by the owner as FREE to anyone, it's just not available.

think it over....

You have sited many examples. But the issue really comes down both to common sense and good sense. No wargame company wants their product associated with porn sites. The underdogs is a very respectable, well-known, and long-run website.

They operate under the fair use rule: they offer only games that have been abandoned. If their owners object, then a simple letter to the site will have that game removed. In fact, if you browse the site, you will see many games that have stopped being offered on the site. It dosen't take lawsuits to remove a game from that site; a simple letter will do. . .

Any game, book, or music that has been abandoned by its previous owner should be available under the fair use law (with the provision that such a work can be shown to be in good taste and is worthy of being offered to the public again). Such a condition would take care of the porn examples you sited.

Again, under the fair use law, a company simply cannot hide behind copyright as a reason to actively withhold its product from the public. . .

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
Hmmm seasonal turn complaint....no way to respond to that in my opinion. TR is what it is, and that means seasonal turns.

It would be easier to design your own game and call it something like Strategic Command:) Come to think of if, someone did that recently. Redesigning TR PC in a radical way though seems unlikely to be worth it.

WiR hmmm I have downloaded it, installed it and immediately unloaded it. Likely the same reason I did the same with Clash of Steel. Antigue un friendly interface.

Although I am unsure if I was hasty with WiR. I recently re downloaded the latest version of PaCWar as well.
But I can only say, if a computer version is less appealing than a board game equal, I will in a lot of cases, remain playing the board game.

My only significant complaints with TR PC is A it isn't Advanced TR and B the AI was horrid. If the patches add something to the game that might help.

Copywrite? Hmm I will download an old game with no moral reservations if I know this game is NOT going to be on sale anywhere at all. I don't see finding yesterdays junk (to some) on par with downloading commercially viable games off of KaZaa.

I am something of a writer, and I have seen a lot of material on the subject of copywrite though. The only real easy statement you can make about copywrite, is it is keeping lawyers busy and rich.

Final thoughts for me on TR PC...if if looks nice, runs nice, and can be obtained for next to no effort, it will have some promise.

But don't wait around for Matrix to spend a lot of effort fiddling with an old game they won't be able to actually realistically sell. My advice, if you can get it (from say Underdogs) consider yourself lucky to get it at all.

These are basically my thoughts as well.

To paraphrase Jimmy Stewart: "The site is there; the game is there; and I am there. Downloading the game seemed like the thing to do at the time."

If you have been wanting to try the game, it is there. It's not for everyone. But for a grand WWII experience, it is hard to beat. .

Cheers!

I cut my war gaming teeth on Third Reich. It was a great game. I still have the game in a box.

Many of you will be surprised that any of those phrases come from me.

If it were possible to make an up to date version for the PC, I would be an avid player.

After 10 years as a regular player I got the PC version. I thought the AI was an excellent player, except that it never watched the BRP level so the human could force 2 turns in a row – thereby winning easily.

If you run patch 1.38 under DOS the game runs perfectly. But it still has faults:

Two rules were excluded – partisans and …....I forget the other.

You cannot save a game in the middle of a turn, only at the end of a turn. If the scenario takes a while to play this becomes a great weakness.

Under the board version we concentrated on one front at a time. Under the PC version you must EXACTLY follow the sequence printed on the back of the rule book. A great weakness in the game. Example: Follow step 1 on all fronts, Follow step 2 on all fronts etc. The game interface is very clumsy.

Due to the interception / counter interception rules under naval and air warfare, it is impossible to play a PBEM game.

Under the PC version you cannot see the whole map at one time.

If 2 players are in the same room, it still takes 18 hours to play the 1939 scenario. That applies to both the board version and the PC version. The excessive time is due to the number of calculations you need to make. They are not difficult it just takes a lot of time. It is the one and only reason I don’t play it today. Therefore, there needs to be a number of short scenarios added.

The game ran well on my old Pentium 100. When I upgraded to a Pentium 300 the game did not run any faster. I enquired into this and it seems that it was hard coded into the game. There are times the game needs to run faster.

Les says Advanced Third Reich was a better game. It had a Pacific companion – Rising Sun – I would love to win the lottery so I have the time to play both. If needed I would buy a large shed and hire somebody to be a full time opponent. That is my passion for the game. And yet I don’t play it. Is there a story here somewhere?

Originally posted by Joe 98
I cut my war gaming teeth on Third Reich. It was a great game. I still have the game in a box.

Many of you will be surprised that any of those phrases come from me.

If it were possible to make an up to date version for the PC, I would be an avid player.

After 10 years as a regular player I got the PC version. I thought the AI was an excellent player, except that it never watched the BRP level so the human could force 2 turns in a row – thereby winning easily.

If you run patch 1.38 under DOS the game runs perfectly. But it still has faults:

Two rules were excluded – partisans and …....I forget the other.

You cannot save a game in the middle of a turn, only at the end of a turn. If the scenario takes a while to play this becomes a great weakness.

Under the board version we concentrated on one front at a time. Under the PC version you must EXACTLY follow the sequence printed on the back of the rule book. A great weakness in the game. Example: Follow step 1 on all fronts, Follow step 2 on all fronts etc. The game interface is very clumsy.

Due to the interception / counter interception rules under naval and air warfare, it is impossible to play a PBEM game.

Under the PC version you cannot see the whole map at one time.

If 2 players are in the same room, it still takes 18 hours to play the 1939 scenario. That applies to both the board version and the PC version. The excessive time is due to the number of calculations you need to make. They are not difficult it just takes a lot of time. It is the one and only reason I don’t play it today. Therefore, there needs to be a number of short scenarios added.

The game ran well on my old Pentium 100. When I upgraded to a Pentium 300 the game did not run any faster. I enquired into this and it seems that it was hard coded into the game. There are times the game needs to run faster.

Les says Advanced Third Reich was a better game. It had a Pacific companion – Rising Sun – I would love to win the lottery so I have the time to play both. If needed I would buy a large shed and hire somebody to be a full time opponent. That is my passion for the game. And yet I don’t play it. Is there a story here somewhere?

All of your concerns are valid. Even more reason for someone (such as Matrix) to breathe some new life into this game. Heck, I would gladly shell out $20-25 for someone to give this game a facelift. Look at all the work that has gone into PacWar and WiR. . .

I also think all this talk about older games, helps game companies make gaming decisions.

A few examples:

1) Panzer General 2 was abandoned by SSI a long time ago. A few dedicated gamers worked on the game, offered it free for download, etc, etc, and now because of their work and interest in the game, a company has obtained the rights to it and is once again offering it for sale.

2) All the interest in PacWar has led to it being fixed up, as well as the new games (UV and WiTP) being made.

3) I think having abandoned games being offered on sites such as the Underdogs can have benefitial side effects for game companies: they get free advertising, and if they were smart, they could get free marketing data by monitoring how many of their old games are being downloaded each month. They could then use this data to: a) re-make the games; and/or b) offer a compilation of their old games on CD to the public.

I am sure someone, somewhere is observing our discussion about 3rR.

Who knows? Maybe Strategic Command 2 will be THE WWII European game to own. . .

Originally posted by Von Rom
LOL

You said it!

Even my patches have patches LOL

See what you started? If you're lucky, we won't send assassins after you the way we did after CCB when the Bismarck thread rolled out of control like a - umm, okay, I won't insert the obvious space shuttle joke (don't worry, CCB, they'll get you - it's just a matter of time).

Listen, folks, Von Rom and I (as a follow-on poster) have merely been saying that we enjoyed the old 3R game for the computer and would like to see it revised and re-issued. A3R is a good board wargame. It is not what the revised computer 3R would be. Such a revision would take on its own identity and character and stand on its own merits.

The intellectual property discussion has nothing to do with any of this. Note that Von Rom suggested at the very outset that Matrix obtain the rights to do the revision.

Thanks, by the way, VR, for mentioning the "fair use" doctrine, which was apparently outside the ken of those who were primarily interested in trotting out their (obviously lay) legal knowledge as a means of being critical, not in promoting a simple, entertaining discussion of the possibility of having an even better version of an already great game.

I'm not interested in pursuing the "quarterly turns" wild goose, considering, as has already been pointed out, that this was the sine qua non of the 3R design - so successful that it remains the foundation of the A3R revision (even the ultra lame Prados follow-on for Avalanche Games that - if you can believe it - uses the Axis and Allies system as the basis for its combat resolution. Yes, "roll a six and you get a hit" strikes again).

I guess in these forums you have to dig a foxhole before you try to be friendly and engaging. As Dylan once said, "I offered up my innocence and got repaid with scorn."

Originally posted by pasternakski
See what you started? If you're lucky, we won't send assassins after you the way we did after CCB when the Bismarck thread rolled out of control like a - umm, okay, I won't insert the obvious space shuttle joke (don't worry, CCB, they'll get you - it's just a matter of time).

Listen, folks, Von Rom and I (as a follow-on poster) have merely been saying that we enjoyed the old 3R game for the computer and would like to see it revised and re-issued. A3R is a good board wargame. It is not what the revised computer 3R would be. Such a revision would take on its own identity and character and stand on its own merits.

The intellectual property discussion has nothing to do with any of this. Note that Von Rom suggested at the very outset that Matrix obtain the rights to do the revision.

Thanks, by the way, VR, for mentioning the "fair use" doctrine, which was apparently outside the ken of those who were primarily interested in trotting out their (obviously lay) legal knowledge as a means of being critical, not in promoting a simple, entertaining discussion of the possibility of having an even better version of an already great game.

I'm not interested in pursuing the "quarterly turns" wild goose, considering, as has already been pointed out, that this was the sine qua non of the 3R design - so successful that it remains the foundation of the A3R revision (even the ultra lame Prados follow-on for Avalanche Games that - if you can believe it - uses the Axis and Allies system as the basis for its combat resolution. Yes, "roll a six and you get a hit" strikes again).

I guess in these forums you have to dig a foxhole before you try to be friendly and engaging. As Dylan once said, "I offered up my innocence and got repaid with scorn."

pasternakski: What? Little 'ol me? hehe

I always enjoy a good discussion; bending a bow always makes it stronger. . .

I loved the board game. Imagine what could be done with 3rR today? It would be a labour of love. Can you imagine the feedback a company would get from wargamers? Heck, I'd work on it for free. . .

Since the game is basically abandonware, I wonder how tough it would be to get the rights to it?

What I envision for 3rR:

1) New BIG colourful map ala World in Flames;

2) New counters ala TOAW (heck offer many different variations);

3) Mouse wheel support;

4) Re-work the AI;

5) Add new rules;

6) Create a scenario editor for it;

7) Add weather conditions (actually see snow on the map during winter). Heck, PG1 had this back in 1992.

8) Add in lots of new stuff such as partisans, scorched earth, leaders, etc, etc. . .

9) Simpify the turn routines (they can be a bit rigid)

As I mentioned, there is still no game of 3rR's size and scope that is currently on the market. I am willing to put up with its flaws so that I can enjoy a reasonably accurate grand WWII game in Europe.

jnier:

Although abandonware is illegal, no one gets in trouble for it as long as the copyrights are no longer enforced (like at underdogs). And most companies are not going to spend thousands of dollars to enforce a copyright on a twenty year old piece of software. Hasbro is not going to come after you for playing an abandonware copy of Third Reich because there's no money in it for them.

I approach it more from an ethical standpoint. You make one perhaps incorrect assumption though. You assume that only one company would be after somebody like the underdogs, but given how many titles from different companies they have, the danger may lie more closely in a number of the companies joining forces in a collective lawsuit, but, then again, if what I heard is correct, that the underdogs are located in Singapore, they can safely steal other people's work as they are doing; safely in this earthly life anyway. You also assume that the underdogs will continue to have 20 year old software only, which if you know like I do, you already know that's only generalizing. In fact, I recall seeing 2001 software there before, but maybe it's because the new stuff really was approved. I don't know, but I doubt they'll stay satisfied with just the 20 year old stuff, as even their motto of having "underdogs" type software has already become a muddle. No, Aces of the Deep and Aces over Europe aren't "underdog" type titles, they were readily available and pretty recent, and as in no way, shape, or fashion, unknown.

Von Rom:

The underdogs is a very respectable, well-known, and long-run website.

That coming from a guy who has used the stuff. If someone comes and takes a book you've written from your premises and says he'll return it if you ask for it, all the while never seeking out whether you'd like it returned or not, is that respectable? Nothing respectable about stealing. I cited porn examples primarily to show that there are instances that where even acknowledged free stuff has limitations to to trying to distribute it.

Even given that for some reason a lot of people may 'respect' underdogs, it's still the author's property is it not? In fact, if I were an author of software and were giving it away free at various sites, I would FORBID them to do so because I don't respect them. They're not on the porn website level, but they'd be disapproved nonetheless.

pasternakski:

The intellectual property discussion has nothing to do with any of this. Note that Von Rom suggested at the very outset that Matrix obtain the rights to do the revision.

Only if you ignore that he or other persons pointed the way to underdogs. In some forums, perhaps this one, such cited references were grounds for moderator deletion, so it may be relevant yet.

Thanks, by the way, VR, for mentioning the "fair use" doctrine, which was apparently outside the ken of those who were primarily interested in trotting out their (obviously lay) legal knowledge as a means of being critical, not in promoting a simple, entertaining discussion of the possibility of having an even better version of an already great game.

Mentioning the "fair use" doctrine, and people know what that means? Do we really? It's funny how the pirates mention that law interpeted by them, but I don't find those who complain of their piracy interpeting it the same way. Here's some facts:

http://www.nolo.com/lawcenter/ency/arti ... 5C119B5806

One of the most poignant points I take from all of that, is that the copier is restricted from making the full copy available, particularly when expressed consent of the author has not been granted. This sort of thing is so ridiculous on one website I frequent, that they will not allow you to quote more than a 100 words from any source. With the 'fair use' being so strict on the many printed media examples they cite, I would very much doubt that the underdogs would be given the green light, particularly sinc as it stands, they both are doing it unapproved, and are also offering an entire work.

Originally posted by Charles_22
Von Rom:

That coming from a guy who has used the stuff. If someone comes and takes a book you've written from your premises and says he'll return it if you ask for it, all the while never seeking out whether you'd like it returned or not, is that respectable? Nothing respectable about stealing. I cited porn examples primarily to show that there are instances that where even acknowledged free stuff has limitations to to trying to distribute it.

Even given that for some reason a lot of people may 'respect' underdogs, it's still the author's property is it not? In fact, if I were an author of software and were giving it away free at various sites, I would FORBID them to do so because I don't respect them. They're not on the porn website level, but they'd be disapproved nonetheless.

Charles_22: have you even visited the underdogs recently?

If I wrote a book, published it, and then decided that I would no longer publish it, but would, in fact, hide it away forever. Then if I actively tried to stop someone from publishing it for FREE and distributing it for FREE, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court.

I have no doubt someone would not want a single word of their's to be copied. After all, there are many people who would not even give a dime to a begger.

However, the term "Fair Use" is used in a much broader way than in the example you have used:

Sec. 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include -

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole;

and (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

So, in the case of 3rR:

1) this abandonware is not commercial;

2) it is a historical computer wargame.

4) it is being given away free and therefore no money is being made.

Number 3 means that 100% of the computer game is being offered. However, in fair use cases the most important factor taken into consideration is number 4. Since the game has been abandoned; since it is being offered free; and since it is not competing with any other similar product; it follows that 3rR has had no impact on the commercial market.

Therefore, under the conditions laid out under "Fair Use", the hosting and downloading of the game "3rR" would not be illegal.