Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Rongor

Exactly!

Right now I am constantly switching depth, but I feel quite insecure about what I am doing.

My thoughts-
As deep as possible keeps me most distant from any surface/air sensor. Yet I have the Il-38 sensing me in 1000 ft depth. Also I assume that staying close at the sea floor may reduce the possible cone of upgoing reflections. On the other hand getting near the sea floor increases the intensity of my emissions hitting the reflecting surfaces on the floor.
Proceeding right under the layer should give me the greatest range for my passive sonar regarding submerged threads also below the layer. Yet I also spread my own emissions the most (I guess) under the layer, while keeping some cover vs. sensors above the layer.
Right above the layer lets me listen what is going on at the surface. OTOH I makes myself vulnerable to sensors above the layer.
Sometimes I intentionally climb to periscope depth, to enable my crew noticing surface vessels and aircraft along the horizon which I then can avoid to not proceed into their possible ASW traps.

My thought is in this scenario you should keep at as deep as possible, never go above layer

I tried this scenario 5 times (plus dozen S/L), it was very frustrating experience at the beginning , but I achieved victory in last two games, sink both Soviet SSBN.

In the first try my subs are moving above the layer, both Tunny and Whale were quickly sunk. Then I took other people's advise and make both my subs travel in layer, but I still receive the "torp in water, 0nm!" message.

Here are my thoughts,
1, in this scenario the layer is too shallow and too thin. If my memory is correct, it is -30m~-80m. The thin layer will not provide enough protection. in other scenario with thick layer, the layer will protect the sub from sonobuoy above and under layer . But in this scenario sub in layer will be detected by sonobuoy both above AND under layer.
2, Mother nature is not friendly to you , it is heavy rain on the Ocean surface. So forget those soviet ships, you will have a hard time to pickup surface contact. On the other hand, the soviet ships are blind too, they don't have VDS/towed arrays. If you were chased by an AT-14, that means ASW planes/Helo did find you.
3, Don't rush into the storm, plan your approaching carefully.
4, have faith in Royal Navy, they will create distraction on soviet ASW force, sometimes they can even create a miracle.

in my 4th and 5th game, I choose to keep at as deep as possible, and it works, although you might still lose sub . in the last game I even achieved the victory without S/L.

The enemy subs do travel above the layer as well as just under and max depth. I followed one sub for hours that would alternate above and below the layer. You do risk missing contacts on the other side of the layer if you don't check.

It may increase the risk of discovery by periodically going above layer, but I actually think in this scenario it might be to your advantage defensively to alternate between the two. It is heavy rain on the surface which helps hide your signature from surface listeners, as well as moderately rough sea which should (should as in, my theorising [;)]) hinder shallow depth sonar buoys from picking you up as well as they should. This means although the shallows are still dangerous (especially with MAD equipped aircraft above you don't forget) they are safer than they normally would be. Also, my theory is by alternating between above and below will disrupt/break any positive sonar contact the enemy has of you..... it certainly does when the enemy subs did it during my observations. So if you plan your search patterns to have change of depths, speed and directions you should be able to incorporate these to be of benefit to your searching and defence.

The beauty (depending on your enjoyment) of sub warfare I find is that you don't really ever know how well your tactics are working until you succeed or die. It's a test of discipline, patience and your ability to come up with procedures to give you the best chance of success.

(All of the above could be completely wrong and I may just be getting very lucky. Buuuuut, it definitely does seem like I am getting luckier with each new adaption I make to my tactics.)

To evade sonar, you basically have to keep your distance and keep "inside the layer". I write that in quotation marks because to me it looks that in all resources I find online that describe sonar operation the real thermal layer is actually the top level of the layer in Command. This is the level where the gradient of the speed of sound flips. "Inside the layer" is being in the shadow zone, where the sonar waves are bent away from you (or away from an enemy receiver) if you are beyond a certain distance. In reality this is actually under the layer.

You don't want to go "below the layer" because that is where the deep sound channel is defined to be in Command. This lower level is not talked about in the sources, it's probably where the speed gradient bends back again. This is the depth where the sound is held inside a sound wave guide over large distances. For instance, try to take a very loud Chinese XIA SSBN going in the deep sound channel below the layer and try to detect it with a SURTASS ship in deep water. It's detectable at 200 nautical miles with the outermost conversion zone!

If layer is not thick enough, it is useless to run inside layer...you'd be vulnerable from both above and below, since thickness of layer is not enough to deflect sound well-enough. If I understand correctly, that is the case in this scenario. In that case, old movie name "Run Deep, Run Silent" is a good idea. One can periodically pop up over the layer to get idea of surface situation, but generally I'd stay as deep as possible in this scenario for few reasons. When deep:

- you are less vulnerable to MAD detection
- when above layer, you are increasingly vulnerable to ship hull sonars and sonoboyos
- SSBNs are generally always deep

I think speed is more important than depth, but still agree that deeper is better. Chugging along at 10 kts at periscope depth in anything noisier than a Virginia or Seawolf is going to get you got pretty quickly.

I generally stay below the layer and < 5 kts. Anything over 5 kts is purely for transiting, is only done when the area is clear, and is done as deep as possible.

Not sure about SSBNs always being deep, the ones I've caught in Barents Sea Boomers were shallow.

As for searching, I tend to use sprint & drift; cover ~80% of sensor range deep at cruise, slow to 2-3 kts, check each side of the layer + baffles for 5 mins, then another sprint.

One thing also about being deep is that you have bit more time to speed up if attacked by torpedo. Sometimes it helps for evasion, but generally, if detected, you are in trouble.

Thanks for all your thoughts guys.

Also tried to maintain in the layer, but as KungPao pointed out, it seems too thin to be of any help. Right now I am experimenting with different (rather exotic) ingress angles, keeping as deep as possible and at or below 5 knots of speed. After all the Barents Sea unfortunately is a quite shallow theater offering not that much depth to hide.

"How not to be seen" as a submarine....so simple.

Turn down the Metallica.
Drive a diesel.
Go slow.
Go deep.


....i.e. think like one of us retired, married people.