Matrix Games Forums

Just an FYI, some AI scripts are date sensitive - others are not (this can be seen in the AI Tab).
On the three day trial I ran way above in this thread, on day One(Jan 1st 1941) the Japanese took Batan Island - as normal for Dec 7, the following turn the Japanese took Makin Island (again - as usual).
Beyond that - the engine has it's own AI that always functions independent of AI Scripts.
So it comes down to how much time you wish to spend going over the entire database to fine-tine for a new scenario.

B

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

I agree, going back to far destroys too many norms. Bullwinkle is right, too many things to adjust to make it work within the bounds of the developers. However a week or two would "benefit" both sides in terms of industry and training... I believe this is somewhat in line with developer thought in that currently one can redirect the KB, etc. so that Pearl can be avoided. Why not go one step further and rethink the wider launch scenario.

That might not matter to a human Japan player.

In a PBEM, a roll-back benefits Japan a lot more if the Allies have to still "play stupid" until 12/7. Yeah, the Allies can train a few pilots for two weeks. But depending on what they're allowed to move (a long list of HRs) Japan gets to hyper-refine the 12/7 surprise while the Allied player just takes it. In the long, long run it probably doesn't matter, if the Japan player doesn't quit once the fun is over. But a lot of these what-if mods seek to make Japan something it wasn't. The game's design philosophy AND victory conditions (so many players reject them and then wonder why the game has less flavor) seeks to make a "fair" game inside the parameters of what Japan was and could have done.

Now if you want to play from Nov 25 and give the Allies knowledge the PH attack is coming, and give him free rein over all of his assets, that's different. But I doubt Japan players want to attack PH or the PI with a full CAP aloft and all surface combatants in TFs and undocked.

Clearly going back too far distorts things such that the game would loose any sense of historical shaping. I thought the original emphasis was on undoing some of the Japanese's more bizarre arrangements such as the transport mix. This would only take a week or less. Much of this can be taken care of as I indicated in an earlier post (by disembarking some troops) without going back in time. I think the "go" date should remain the 7th (8th Japan time) but that some retooling could take place. Yes this favors the Japanese, but then again, the likely outcome in '45 is much the same. Those that play the RA version get a very unrealistic boost. This boost would be more realistic as it relies upon existing units, changing only the makeup and some locations (time permitting). Trying to backdate movements MONTHs would be a nightmare!!!!

ORIGINAL: Big B

....
So it comes down to how much time you wish to spend going over the entire database to fine-tine for a new scenario.

B

Which can be considerable.

This does make for an interesting premise...
If one were to create a scenario starting in late November - it stands to reason one should take into account where the Allied naval forces were, and also the Dec 7 Surprise Option should be OFF, as Washington issued a War Warning the last week of November, and all commands were on High Alert....

But if one wanted to do a serious alternate history scenario of hostilities starting much earlier, say Jan - April 1941, it would require much research to tweak actual force levels forces, and data base editing.... and one would need to come up with a plausible casus-belli for hostilities to commence... but ultimately it could be a very interesting game.

A LOT OF WORK

B

Since this effectively eliminates the "Pearl Harbor surprise" option, will KB's aircraft still launch torpedo attacks against the allied ships in Port at PH? Attacking those BBs with bombs alone is scarcely worth it.

You are on the right track. A better Japanese plan requires reworking of many things.
But there are some technical problems with your suggestions.

First of all, most of the IJA is not available to use as you may dream of. It has
real missions. It is Japan's main asset - and one can argue that failure to commit it
(as was done in the Russo Japanese War) was a strategic error. But the logistical
foundation of Japan isn't strong enough to send much of that army very far AND feed it
once it gets there.

Midway, for example, was actually preliminary to an invasion of Oahu - by an Army of three
divisions - later in 1942. That is probably a fools errand and the need for Midway is not
great if you are not going to pursue it. [Japanese planning for an invasion of Hawaii dates
from 1910 and was entirely serious. It was more feasible early on - and indeed Hawaii probably
should not have ended up US territory. Almost no one thinks it was legally acquired - not
even the US President of the time - who did not order it occupied and who tried to reverse
the coup. There were numbers of contenders for Hawaii not to mention the possibility of
compromise by letting it remain independent.] However, by 1941, the Hawaii Separate Coast
Defense Command (Gen Marshall wrote it had 117 pieces; not all were crewed, but Gen Short
planned to rob USAAF to man them: all local crews need do is match pointers and shoot when
directed - fire control was from centralized locations with professional staffs). The terrain
is formidable. I once was working on a game of a Japanese invasion; a friend (a US Army Lt Col,
ex Marine, ex enlisted Ranger) did an aerial survey and reported "it is utterly impossible" that
Japan might dislodge two divisions in such terrain. I gave up the project.

Attacking Manila is a good idea. But not by forcing Manila Bay. Invade South of Manila - or even
East of it (SE in particular, at the historical landing site with a primary road crossing over to
the main N-S LOC). AE tends to eat naval forces that enter Manila Bay - usually 100% regardless of
size in a single day! For cause. Manila Bay was second only to Oahu as a US coast defense fortress.

The most practical solution is to start with stock and modify existing task forces. Note you can
specify which task forces have a starting movement bonus - you do not need to accept stock solutions.

A big factor is what are the initial command assignments of your troops, and what locations have they planned for?
Also, who is in command. Setting all this up helps the player a great deal and means political points are
now available for use as he wants - not to do things that should have been planned pre war.

Anyone who is contemplating having a start date earlier than 7 Dec 1941 really should read my post in this thread
 
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3878837&mpage=1&key=&#3878868
 
and the embedded link provided.
 
There really are several pitfalls which will ensnare the unwary.  It really requires a huge amount of work from a very experienced modder to cope with the pitfalls.  Personally I see no valid reason for all this work when the easiest course of action is simply to take scenario 1 and modify the starting locations to the new desired locations.  Of course that will tend to make it playable only by human v human as the AI scripts would be out of "focus".
 
Alfred 

ORIGINAL: Big B

B) the tough part - go through EVERY single unit...change the DELAY DATE from Dec 6th 1941... To 0 (that is ZERO...the numeral 0)

Actually the easy way to do that would be to use WitPLoad, use filters (in Excel or whatever spreadsheet program you use) to locate only units with a delay of 12/6/41 and change them to 0. Or you can simply do a "find and replace" for the delay column, and choose "replace all".

I have a preliminary version of this "Japan Blank Slate" scenario made up in the editor. Start date is 25 Nov 1941. All Japanese TF were disbanded (which causes the ships to switch their "base" to the location where the TF is set to start in the stock Scen 001, and all their contents to also be located there). The result of this was that Samah, Cam Ranh Bay, Pescadores, and Takao had piles and piles of units and ships in them. When I play tested it, I realized: there was just simply too much to get things loaded up and ready for 6 Dec.

I've made some more changes so that the lionshare of these ships and LCUs start in one of Japans larger Home Island ports. This involved a lot of copy-pasting and it is possible I've introduced some hairbrained errors . . . but good enough for me to play with a bit more. I also made some adjustments to PP rates, but that is something anyone can easily change in the editor.

Other than that, it is basically still just "Stock Scenario 001."

Not sure how guys tend to share the files for WitPAE scenarios, and like I say, it is still a WIP and only suitable for solo play against the AI or head-to-head (or two players who have a really good rapport. But if anyone would like to check it out, I'm happy to share it at this point.

With enough time, I might even be able to mold it into a half-way decent PBEM scenario, but I think that will require a lot of tweaking of "Restricted" settings on units, delay dates, etc. Also the cost/benefits of Japanese player either intiating the war early or late would have to be considered. Even then, it might require substantial house rules to prevent the Japanese player from gaming it too much.

ORIGINAL: Big B

B) the tough part - go through EVERY single unit...change the DELAY DATE from Dec 6th 1941... To 0 (that is ZERO...the numeral 0)

Actually the easy way to do that would be to use WitPLoad, use filters (in Excel or whatever spreadsheet program you use) to locate only units with a delay of 12/6/41 and change them to 0. Or you can simply do a "find and replace" for the delay column, and choose "replace all".
[/quote]

Yep! That is a huge time saver

I have a preliminary version of this "Japan Blank Slate" scenario made up in the editor. Start date is 25 Nov 1941. All Japanese TF were disbanded (which causes the ships to switch their "base" to the location where the TF is set to start in the stock Scen 001, and all their contents to also be located there). The result of this was that Samah, Cam Ranh Bay, Pescadores, and Takao had piles and piles of units and ships in them. When I play tested it, I realized: there was just simply too much to get things loaded up and ready for 6 Dec.

ADDIT: it may also be necessary to start with KB part-way embarked and its oiler support TF tagging along and pre-filled. That part I am not sure of yet . . .

I've made some more changes so that the lionshare of these ships and LCUs start in one of Japans larger Home Island ports. This involved a lot of copy-pasting and it is possible I've introduced some hairbrained errors . . . but good enough for me to play with a bit more. I also made some adjustments to PP rates, but that is something anyone can easily change in the editor.

Other than that, it is basically still just "Stock Scenario 001."

Not sure how guys tend to share the files for WitPAE scenarios, and like I say, it is still a WIP and only suitable for solo play against the AI or head-to-head (or two players who have a really good rapport. But if anyone would like to check it out, I'm happy to share it at this point.

With enough time, I might even be able to mold it into a half-way decent PBEM scenario, but I think that will require a lot of tweaking of "Restricted" settings on units, delay dates, etc. Also the cost/benefits of Japanese player either intiating the war early or late would have to be considered. Even then, it might require substantial house rules to prevent the Japanese player from gaming it too much.

Gary Childress:

Actually the easy way to do that would be to use WitPLoad, use filters (in Excel or whatever spreadsheet program you use) to locate only units with a delay of 12/6/41 and change them to 0. Or you can simply do a "find and replace" for the delay column, and choose "replace all".

Yep! That is a huge time saver

Re: Alfred's kind cautionary post above: yeah, I have no idea if crazy stuff might happen, nor if things like date-associated modifiers and scripts and the like packaged inside the .exe will make this whole thing a fools errand!

If nothing else it has been a fun way to get familiar with the editor, and with the data set [:D]