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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers?
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 8:00 pm
by BBfanboy
I found an example of a sinking written up in Wikipedia - USS Aaron Ward DD 483 (the Gleaves class one - not the later Sumner class.) The write up does not mention the type of bombers but in April 1943 it was probably Sally, Betty or Nell bombers from Rabaul - the central Solomons being under assault by the US.
EDIT: just noticed the article mentions dive bombers - I was looking for names of the bomber type.
Sinking
Aaron Ward is off the south coast of Florida Island.
As the ships neared their destination, Aaron Ward received orders at about 1330 to leave her convoy to cover LST-449 off Togoma Point, Guadalcanal. (One of the passengers on LST-449 was then Lieutenant (junior grade) John F. Kennedy, later to become President of the United States, on his way to take command of PT-109.) Joining the tank landing ship at 1419, the destroyer directed her to follow her movements and zigzag at the approach of enemy aircraft. While the LST maneuvered to conform to Aaron Ward's movements, Lieutenant Commander Frederick J. Becton, commanding officer of Aaron Ward, planned to retire to the eastward through Lengo Channel, as other cargo ships and escorting ships were doing upon receipt of the air raid warning from Guadalcanal.
Sighting a dogfight over Savo Island, Aaron Ward tracked a closer group of Japanese planes heading south over Tulagi; while swinging to starboard, the ship suddenly sighted three enemy planes coming out of the sun. Surging ahead to flank speed and putting her rudder over hard to port, Aaron Ward opened fire with her 20 mm and 40 mm guns, followed shortly afterwards by her 5-inch battery. Bombs from the first three planes struck on or near the ship, and the mining effect of the near-misses proved devastating; the first bomb was a near miss, which tore holes in the side of the ship, allowing the forward fire room to ship water rapidly; the second struck home in the engine room, causing a loss of all electrical power on the 5 inch and 40 mm mounts. Shifting to local control, however, the gunners kept up the fire. A third bomb splashed close aboard, holing her port side, near the after engine room. Having lost power to her rudder, the ship continued to swing to port as another trio of dive bombers loosed their loads on the now-helpless destroyer. While none of these bombs hit the ship, two landed very near her port side. Twenty men died, 59 were wounded, and seven went missing.
Despite the best efforts of her determined crew, and the assistance of Ortolan and Vireo, the destroyer settled lower in the water. When it became evident that the battle to save Aaron Ward was being lost, Ortolan and Vireo attempted to beach her on a shoal near Tinete Point of Nggela Sule. At 21:35, however, Aaron Ward sank, stern-first, in 40 fathoms (70 m) of water, only 600 yards (550 m) from shoal water.
RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers?
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:18 pm
by spence
For example, the Bari debacle was notoriously censored.
So of course we are supposed to believe the non-existent Japanese records.
Could it be that the Bari records involved a poison gas which was never used (except maybe by the Japanese against the Chinese)?
Virtually every record kept by anybody indicates that unopposed Japanese level bombers risked "their all" by dropping their bombs on Chinese civilians prior to WW2. Obviously we should accord them a 99 experience cause they were better than anybody else.
RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers?
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:28 pm
by geofflambert
ORIGINAL: pelthunter
ORIGINAL: geofflambert
Here's a list of those that kept meticulous records, beginning with the most anal retentive: The Germans, the British and the good ol' USA.
Hm. Apparently US record keeping depends in the issue.
For example, the Bari debacle was notoriously censored.
You can only censor something that has been written.
RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers?
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:56 pm
by BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: spence
For example, the Bari debacle was notoriously censored.
So of course we are supposed to believe the non-existent Japanese records.
Could it be that the Bari records involved a poison gas which was never used (except maybe by the Japanese against the Chinese)?
Virtually every record kept by anybody indicates that unopposed Japanese level bombers risked "their all" by dropping their bombs on Chinese civilians prior to WW2. Obviously we should accord them a 99 experience cause they were better than anybody else.
Yes, Bari was hush-hush for several reasons:
1. The army did not want the Germans to know that they had poison gas ready to use if the Germans did first. Such knowledge just might make Hitler order use of poison gas!
2. They were very embarrassed that the Germans could pull off such an attack at night with so little opposition. Quite a few ships were sunk or damaged.
3. They were probably very embarrassed at their own stupidity - parking a freighter full of poison gas next to a civilian populace and in a busy logistics port. It should have been parked in a remote area out at sea.
IMO hiding this disaster was a CYA moment more than legit security concerns.
RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers?
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:37 am
by Buckrock
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
I found an example of a sinking written up in Wikipedia - USS Aaron Ward DD 483 (the Gleaves class one - not the later Sumner class.) The write up does not mention the type of bombers but in April 1943 it was probably Sally, Betty or Nell bombers from Rabaul - the central Solomons being under assault by the US.
EDIT: just noticed the article mentions dive bombers - I was looking for names of the bomber type.
It's still an interesting incident by the fact that none of the 50+ G3M/G4Ms available at Rabaul were used. The Japanese shipping strike
that day against the waters off Guadalcanal was huge, 67 Vals escorted by 110 Zeros with another 47 Zeros performing a separate fighter
sweep to clear the way. It was the major Solomons strike of Operation I-Go but the Betties stayed home.
The Rabaul based level bombers were not used until almost week later during the second part of Operation I-Go which was directed against
targets in New Guinea. IIRC, these level bomber missions were all against Allied airfields while the Vals again were the aircraft used
against any shipping.
It wasn't the end of the Japanese using their level bombers against ships in daylight but it may have been something the Japanese now at
least hesitated to do unless no other options were available.
RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers?
Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 4:48 am
by Reg
I read somewhere that high level bombing a moving ship was akin to standing on a chair and attempting to drop a billiard ball onto a mouse running around on the floor....
(citation uncertain...)
RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers?
Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:58 am
by Buckrock
The Japanese early war tactic was to fly in a shallow Vee and perform a chutai formation drop, preferably from around 10000ft which would give the
target vessel less than 30 sec to evade. So translating to your example, it would be the equivalent of dropping one of your boomerangs from a chair
and hoping to hit a mouse running past. Much easier.
RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers?
Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:44 am
by JohnDillworth
Here's a list of warring parties that didn't keep very useful records: the CSA, the Trojans, the Carthaginians and the Japanese. Did I leave anyone out?
Here's a list of those that kept meticulous records, beginning with the most anal retentive: The Germans, the British and the good ol' USA.
Oh, the Japanese kept plenty of records. I understand that you could not see your hand in front of your face for all the documents that were burned between the surrender and the occupation. In an effort, mostly successful, to cover up war crimes massive amounts of documents were burned including lots of IJN and IJA operational records
" The director of Japan’s Military History
Archives of the National Institute for Defense Studies estimated in 2003 that as much as
70 percent of the army’s wartime records were burned or otherwise destroyed".
https://www.archives.gov/files/iwg/japanese-war-crimes/introductory-essays.pdf
RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers?
Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:51 am
by BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: Buckrock
The Japanese early war tactic was to fly in a shallow Vee and perform a chutai formation drop, preferably from around 10000ft which would give the
target vessel less than 30 sec to evade. So translating to your example, it would be the equivalent of dropping one of your boomerangs from a chair
and hoping to hit a mouse running past. Much easier.
The British suffered heavy bombing by Italian level bombers in the Mediterranean but were usually able to avoid by skillful maneuvering. I am not sure the Italian bomber pilots were as skillful or committed as the Japanese ones though. I think the game models bomb dodging in the Naval Skill of ship captains.
RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers?
Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:35 pm
by obvert
Although the Japanese didn't have a high level of hit rate here, they actually achieved a lot with their strike.
In game no one would level bomb from 16k against naval targets. Players would rather lose more planes for the hope of more hits. In fact none of these results or real world situations really matter in game because no one would use settings the Japanese used, preferring to increase accuracy with low level attacks or using torpedoes.
WITP:AE players have access to hindsight, which means we choose the tactics proven most likely to sink ships; dive bombing, skip bombing or torpedo bombing. At the time of course it was still believed high level bombing could hit moving ships.
The argument about number of torpedoes available to the Japanese player is a better one to engage in, because we have an abstraction that isn't an accurate portrayal of real world capability. Could every base with an air HQ and supply have had limitless torpedoes? Probably not. But I don't have access to those records.
RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers?
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 6:51 am
by Yaab
Let's assume I have no torpedoes for the bombers. I can go either very low and skip-bomb which sucks (low Jap bomber durability, Allied AA, fatigue and morale penalty, fewer bombs) or anywhere between 3,000-10,000 feet (still Allied AA, lower accuracy). My point is the Jap bomber loadout in the stock and Babes scenarios limit the carpet effect. Instead of 4 x 250 kg GP you could bomb with 10 x 100 GP kg from 9,000 feet and double your chance of actually hitting something. Don't sink but damage. Otherwise, the Jap level bombers without their torpedoes are only good for ground bombing.
I am not sure why the late-war Japs were hoping for a major naval battle in the vicinity of their land airbases. The bombers' anti-shipping record had been so poor up to that point, that their involvement in a naval battle would have been a complete non-issue.
RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers?
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:21 am
by Buckrock
ORIGINAL: Yaab
I am not sure why the late-war Japs were hoping for a major naval battle in the vicinity of their land airbases. The bombers' anti-shipping record had been so poor up to that point, that their involvement in a naval battle would have been a complete non-issue.
As always, their role in any major late-war naval battle was to disrupt and attrit the enemy's fleet prior to the decisive appearance
of the Mighty Japanese Carrier and Surface Fleets.
But their late war role would not involve formations of level bombers in daylight dropping hundreds of small bombs over enemy ships
from high altitude. Instead, the level bombers were primarily used as "snoopers" and torpedo bombers during the dusk till dawn
period to give them some level of survivability from Allied fighters. Any bombs involved would be delivered through high speed glide
runs or later, as Kamikazes.
RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers?
Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:47 pm
by rustysi
As always, their role in any major late-war naval battle was to disrupt and attrit the enemy's fleet prior to the decisive appearance of the Mighty Japanese Carrier and Surface Fleets.
Basic Japanese war doctrine.[;)]
RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers?
Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:02 pm
by Yaab
Found two more instances. Both involve resupplying Timor in 1942
Timor Conyoy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Houst ... rld_War_II
Houston arrived at Tjilatjap 5 February and stayed until 10 February, when she left for Darwin to escort a convoy carrying troops to reinforce forces already defending Timor. Escorting USAT Meigs, SS Mauna Loa, SS Portmar, and Tulagi, Houston with the destroyer USS Peary and sloops HMAS Warrego and HMAS Swan departed Darwin before two in the morning of 15 February for Koepang. By eleven in the morning, the convoy was being shadowed by a Japanese flying boat that dropped some bombs without causing damage before departing. T
he next morning another shadowing aircraft had taken position, and before noon the convoy was attacked by bombers and flying boats in two waves. During the first attack, Mauna Loa suffered slight damage and two casualties, one killed and one wounded. Houston's fire showed no effects. During the second attack, H
ouston distinguished herself with a barrage which made her "like a sheet of flame"[8] shooting down 7 of the 44 planes of the second wave. The convoy continued toward Timor for a few hours, with Houston launching a scout plane seeking the enemy position. ABDA suspected the presence of Japanese carriers, an imminent invasion of Timor, and a support fleet lying in wait and thus ordered the convoy back to Darwin, which it reached before noon on the 18 February.
-----------------
#1. As discussed more than once in this forum, the mid-February 1942 effort involved a substantial force, among other units an Australian Pioneer battalion and the American 1st Battalion, 148th Field Artillery (NOT the 49th Artillery Battalion), aboard USAT Meigs and merchantmen Mauna Loa, Portmar, and Tulagi, escorted by USS Houston, USS Peary, HMAS Swan, and HMAS Warrego.
#2. On September 23d and 24th, at attempt to replace 2/2 Independent Company with fresh troops failed
with the grounding and sinking--by attacking hostile aircraft and the subsequent scuttling--of W class destroyer HMAS Voyager.
--------
HMAS Voyager was beached/grounded prior to attack. It suffered much damage and was later dynamited by the Allies
"The first of a series of bombing raids began mid afternoon, such that by the evening there was no alternative to the detonation of demolition charges, thereby destroying the ship."
Well, the Jap level bomber record is, for the lack of other words, depressing.
RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers?
Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:37 pm
by BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: Yaab
Found two more instances. Both involve resupplying Timor in 1942
Timor Conyoy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Houst ... rld_War_II
Houston arrived at Tjilatjap 5 February and stayed until 10 February, when she left for Darwin to escort a convoy carrying troops to reinforce forces already defending Timor. Escorting USAT Meigs, SS Mauna Loa, SS Portmar, and Tulagi, Houston with the destroyer USS Peary and sloops HMAS Warrego and HMAS Swan departed Darwin before two in the morning of 15 February for Koepang. By eleven in the morning, the convoy was being shadowed by a Japanese flying boat that dropped some bombs without causing damage before departing. T
he next morning another shadowing aircraft had taken position, and before noon the convoy was attacked by bombers and flying boats in two waves. During the first attack, Mauna Loa suffered slight damage and two casualties, one killed and one wounded. Houston's fire showed no effects. During the second attack, H
ouston distinguished herself with a barrage which made her "like a sheet of flame"[8] shooting down 7 of the 44 planes of the second wave. The convoy continued toward Timor for a few hours, with Houston launching a scout plane seeking the enemy position. ABDA suspected the presence of Japanese carriers, an imminent invasion of Timor, and a support fleet lying in wait and thus ordered the convoy back to Darwin, which it reached before noon on the 18 February.
-----------------
#1. As discussed more than once in this forum, the mid-February 1942 effort involved a substantial force, among other units an Australian Pioneer battalion and the American 1st Battalion, 148th Field Artillery (NOT the 49th Artillery Battalion), aboard USAT Meigs and merchantmen Mauna Loa, Portmar, and Tulagi, escorted by USS Houston, USS Peary, HMAS Swan, and HMAS Warrego.
#2. On September 23d and 24th, at attempt to replace 2/2 Independent Company with fresh troops failed
with the grounding and sinking--by attacking hostile aircraft and the subsequent scuttling--of W class destroyer HMAS Voyager.
--------
HMAS Voyager was beached/grounded prior to attack. It suffered much damage and was later dynamited by the Allies
"The first of a series of bombing raids began mid afternoon, such that by the evening there was no alternative to the detonation of demolition charges, thereby destroying the ship."
Well, the Jap level bomber record is, for the lack of other words, depressing.
I'm not sure what you are illustrating with this - the vulnerability of Japanese bombers or the fact that they did attack ships in 1942 in daylight?
The part you bolded may refer to low flying patrol aircraft or float planes that are very slow and vulnerable. At that time the Japanese commanders were not yet worried about their losses and would throw anything at their enemy "for the glory of the emperor".
And you haven't mentioned all the Allied ships damaged and sunk by LBA during those early days of the war when Japanese pilots were well trained and experienced and Allied AA and fighters were scarce. So Japanese LBA can be useful against ships if the pilots are good and they have lots of fighter protection and fly high enough and have enough numbers to get some hits. (that's 3 "ands" in one sentence [:-]). The game does allow the IJ player to develop and keep good pilots, and build some bombers that are more survivable than Betties and Nells.
RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers?
Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:40 pm
by Yaab
I am just looking at the historical record of Jap level bomber attacks against Allied ships, in which bombers used bombs, that's all. In the game, Jap level bombers flying with torpedoes are deadlier than they were in the RL. I was wondering if the same could be said against level bombers armed with bombs.
RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers?
Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:04 pm
by BBfanboy
There was another thread about four months ago that discussed a lot of this. Houston took a bomb hit before the Battle of the Java Sea. Marblehead was badly damaged and forced to limp home (halfway around the world to EC USA) so it missed that battle. Lots of ships fleeing Singapore were bombed, some sunk - but they were nearly all helpless civilian ships.
At Guadalcanal transport George F. Elliot was hit by a bomb and set afire. I am sure there are lots more but compared to what the Allies later did to shipping it was not so devastating.
RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers?
Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:17 pm
by Buckrock
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
There was another thread about four months ago that discussed a lot of this. Houston took a bomb hit before the Battle of the Java Sea. Marblehead was badly damaged and forced to limp home (halfway around the world to EC USA) so it missed that battle. Lots of ships fleeing Singapore were bombed, some sunk - but they were nearly all helpless civilian ships.
At Guadalcanal transport George F. Elliot was hit by a bomb and set afire. I am sure there are lots more but compared to what the Allies later did to shipping it was not so devastating.
The USS George F. Elliot was hit by a bomber rather than a bomb during the attempted torpedo attack by Japanese aircraft on Aug 8th, 1942.
And just as a clarification on Yaab's example of the Houston convoy, the Japanese records for the air units involved (1st and Toko Ku) show no aircraft
lost during their attack which was made at a higher than normal altitude due to the Houston's effective 5" AA fire (now that she had received working
shells from the USS Boise).