RE: OT: Dunkirk the Movie!
Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:02 am
I'll correct myself before someone else does. [:)] Goering wasn't promoted until after the fall of France. He was still a mere five star general at Dunkirk.
ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1ORIGINAL: Big B
One of my favorite movies growing up was 1969's Battle of Britain....I still love it.
Hermann Goering was portrayed as a buffoon who didn't understand fighter pilots and modern aerial warfare.
As an adult I understand that things back then were still portrayed in WW2 propaganda format.
Today, I understand that Hermann Goering was the last leader of Richthofen's Flying Circus in WW1, and an accomplished fighter ace in his own right... he couldn't have been the ass he is portrayed as in popular history - in reality - something doesn't smell right.
The Germans finally getting crushed doesn't mean the propaganda was accurate either ..... just saying (and I'm an American Fanboy).
B
Hi Big B I would recommend The Battle of Britain (Holland) and The Most Dangerous Enemy (Bungay). There may have been an element of mickey take about his portrayal in that excellent film - but not much given what the likes of Galland and Speer had to say.
I don't think Goering's personal bravery (before his drug addiction) comes into his ability to command the Luftwaffe. His tactics in the battle and his lack of energy in understanding what was required (look at the British efforts to get damaged aircraft back in the skies compared to the Germans as just one example) were woeful.
Goering was a political animal and what was right for Germany appeared to come second to what was right for the Luftwaffe - and for Goering! Don't get me wrong, Goering was, by all accounts highly intelligent, but (and I can only assume his addiction was the issue here) he was the wrong man to lead the Luftwaffe - let alone the economy!
Of all the insults to our intelligence in "The Battle of Britain," perhaps the very worst is when Michael Caine's dog looks wistfully up into the sky and whines for his master to return. We are asked to applaud heroism because of the discomfort it causes dogs. There was hardly a wet eye in the house.
Okay… so one up to the BoB apparently… but what is actually so wrong about that “obligatory” scene anyway?"Battle of Britain," in fact, is a throwback to those phony war movies of the 1940s. Remember the obligatory scene of the dashing young pilots lounging around the officers' club? Suddenly the attack alarm sounds, and they all dash out into the night, leaving the fire burning and a few chairs overturned. The faithful old servant moves slowly through the room, adjusting chairs, and then the roar of airplanes is heard overhead as our boys fly off to engage the Hun. The servant takes a half-empty pint of beer from a table, lifts it to toast the heroes, and softly says: "Here's to You, sir!"
To its credit, "The Battle of Britain" eliminates this scene.
Yes you are right. Personally I would never watch a war film with such a ridiculous scene.The pilot staring moodily out the hotel window while his girl looks pensive on the bed;
**** me really?! I mean seriously? BoB shows Churchill complete with cigar! That’s outrageous. Why wasn’t his personage appropriately reflected – you know dressed in his favourite pink tank top while smoking a pipe?Churchill, represented by a cigar;
the Kid who gets killed on his first mission;
the brave little Red Cross nurse;
Cos that never happens does it? No matter the film, no matter the genre, the wisened, experienced person helping to explain the plot through his own previous experience just doesn’t happen – or shouldn’t. The fact it happens in BoB truly confirms this as a rubbish film. Or does it confirm the reviewer as someone who doesn't actually know what he's blabbing on about because its a well used method to bring the audience up to date with the plot?the outcast officer whose early warnings are vindicated;
The point is? The officious German general – and what about the pompous British officer trying to teach the Poles (who of course need no teaching)? They are characters.the officious German general;
the Nazi pilots drinking champagne
We drink a lot of tea. Sorry and all that. But we do. Sorry that is a crime I know. Re the repairs have a look at German “efforts” to get damaged aircraft back in service and compare that with the British……while the harried British gulp tea and make repairs.
Yes – it’s a ****ing war film. And here's an absolute shocker. Many people who go to watch war films, go to see war based action. They go to watch aircraft porn, battleship filth and downright naughty panzers. I know right? Who knew?And interminable shots of airplanes being shot down.
The airplanes are another sore point. Sure, Harry Saltzman spent millions to assemble and repair Spitfires and Hurricanes, and there was even a TV special about the authenticity of the movie. But you've got to USE airplanes; it isn't enough to own them. Some of the aerial photography is very good. We see dogfights actually filmed in the air and fought by real planes (instead of by models and visual effects).
But the aerial scenes are allowed to run forever and repeat themselves shamelessly, until we're sure we saw that same Heinkel dive into the sea (sorry -- the "drink") three times already. And the special effects aren't all that good for a movie that cost $12,000,000.
So what? You now sound like a nerd because you want to impress us with your formation flying knowledge. But exactly how many people did those few seconds of celluloid spoil the film for? Compare that to more modern films with bigger budgets where aircraft are flying off in all impossible directions and angles…..For example: We see hundreds of German bombers, row after row, thundering across the sky to bomb London. But every one of the bombers moves at precisely the same speed, There's no relative change in position, or correcting for altitude. Nobody even dips a wing. The Germans were good, but they weren't that good.
Same again – it was hardly a deal breaker….And so the scene looks fishy, and we figure out we're looking at models. No progress has been made since that notorious scene in "Mrs. Miniver" (1942), where the Dunkirk fleet churned across the English Channel at exactly the same speed (rowboats, gunboats, it didn't matter) and you realized they were being towed through a tank on the same string.
Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez. What is possibly not possible to understand about the film? The Germans have won the Battle for France, the Battle for Britain is about to begin - that is all explained. Its also explained about how the Germans are preparing for invasion and we get little vignettes with Curt Jurgens and Ralph Richardson in Switzerland – plus speeches by Laurence Olivier (Dowding) to explain further e.g. the rate at which the young Allied pilots needed to shoot down their German opposite numbers, the mistake that was turning on London etc. I mean genuinely where did you get lost in this massively complex story line??????Inept as a lot of the effects are, they look good compared to the plot, or story, or whatever it is. Despite a lot of impressive speechmaking, no attempt is made to explain and clarify the Battle of Britain. Strategy is confined to pushing symbols around on maps. There are so many characters we never get involved. We can't even keep them straight. The writers never solved the problem of incorporating the top-heavy special effects into their thin little plot.
There's also evidence that the movie was butchered in the editing. Several scenes seem to lead into or out of other scenes that aren't there. For example, after Susannah York learns that Christopher Plummer has been shot down in flames, there's one of those obligatory scenes intended only to telegraph an outcome. She sees a badly burned man and is lectured on plastic surgery and all that. So we're set up for her dramatic confrontation with Plummer, which never comes. We never see either one of them again, in fact.
All we're left with is the offensive publicity campaign. It may be necessary to remind ourselves that the movie is not the battle itself. That TV documentary seemed to hint that Harry Saltzman, the producer, was only slightly less heroic than the guys who flew in the battle. They only died. He had to buy the planes.
warspite1ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
But what did you think of the review? [&:]
ORIGINAL: bradfordkay
I never read reviews of movies in which I am interested. Far too often the reviewers POV is diametrically opposed to my own...
BTW Warspite, you are spot on in your review of the review. Roger Ebert had no clue about the subject of the film.
warspite1ORIGINAL: bradfordkay
All this talk about the movie Battle of Britain made me dig out my copy and watch it this afternoon. I got no turns run in my game, but it was still a very enjoyable afternoon...
I think the "outcast" referred to was AVM Leigh-Mallory who wanted to form the fighters into a "big wing" before attacking so as to overwhelm the escorts and get to the bombers. IIRC the movie shows AVM Park (in charge of fighter tactics) favouring each flight going into the attack immediately so they could come down and rearm/refuel quicker and go back again.ORIGINAL: warspite1
Yeah, just finished watching it again too [:)]
Having done so, I actually am not convinced that Mr Ebert even saw the film.
a) there was actually far more story telling and scene setting than I remembered. If one watched that film knowing absolutely nothing of the story then that person could not fail to get the gist.
b) at what point did Christopher Plummer actually stop and stare moodily out of the bedroom window and at what point was Susannah York looking pensive on the bed? Must have missed that.
c) funnily enough, Churchill was represented by Churchill. He had a cigar in hand - not uncommon for WSC, but I can confirm the cigar was not sitting in the seat to represent Churchill as Mr Ebert appears to believe was the case.
d) there were two young pilots who were killed on their first mission - not one.
e) so who was the Red Cross nurse? Exactly when did she make an appearance?
f) who was the 'outcast' officer. A few wisened old heads, but an outcast?
g) oddly enough the Germans didn't spend all their time drinking Champagne. There was copious amounts of coffee on show too.
It would have been nice if he'd watched the film before commenting on it.....
I'm up for The Great Escape now!
warspite1ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
I think the "outcast" referred to was AVM Leigh-Mallory...ORIGINAL: warspite1
Yeah, just finished watching it again too [:)]
Having done so, I actually am not convinced that Mr Ebert even saw the film.
a) there was actually far more story telling and scene setting than I remembered. If one watched that film knowing absolutely nothing of the story then that person could not fail to get the gist.
b) at what point did Christopher Plummer actually stop and stare moodily out of the bedroom window and at what point was Susannah York looking pensive on the bed? Must have missed that.
c) funnily enough, Churchill was represented by Churchill. He had a cigar in hand - not uncommon for WSC, but I can confirm the cigar was not sitting in the seat to represent Churchill as Mr Ebert appears to believe was the case.
d) there were two young pilots who were killed on their first mission - not one.
e) so who was the Red Cross nurse? Exactly when did she make an appearance?
f) who was the 'outcast' officer. A few wisened old heads, but an outcast?
g) oddly enough the Germans didn't spend all their time drinking Champagne. There was copious amounts of coffee on show too.
It would have been nice if he'd watched the film before commenting on it.....
I'm up for The Great Escape now!
And I do not even remember Ives. [:(]ORIGINAL: warspite1
And as for poor Ives.....his story killed me as a kid, and still does [:(]
warspite1ORIGINAL: Orm
And I do not even remember Ives. [:(]ORIGINAL: warspite1
And as for poor Ives.....his story killed me as a kid, and still does [:(]
I do not remember much at all about this movie. [:(]
warspite1ORIGINAL: ndworl
Warspite said:
"As for Great Escape, what a truly stonking film, much better than I remembered.
The acting (James Coburn's Sedgewick and his 'Australian' accent aside) was first class."
I always thought James Coburn was Australian, BECAUSE of his role in this film.