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RE: The Last Stand
Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:47 pm
by altipueri
George MacDonald Fraser places his fictional anti-hero, Flashman at the battle in the book Flashman and the Redskins. Flashman survives the battle thanks to an Oglala Indian girl (Walking Blanket Woman) who takes pity on him in her eagerness to join the main battle, and to his illegitimate son, Frank Standing Bear, who had grown up among the Sioux.
Flashman elsewhere comments that the Battle of the Little Big Horn is more proof that any sane person should run the other way from any military action where the Irish tune Garryowen is played beforehand. The drinking song was also popular among British soldiers at the Charge of the Light Brigade, which he also survived, barely.
RE: The Last Stand
Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:59 pm
by Blond_Knight
ORIGINAL: c unit
ORIGINAL: Blond_Knight
Has anyone tried the HPS game Desperate Glory about Custer and the Battle of the 'Greasy Grass', as the Lakota like to call it?
HPS Desperate Glory
I have the game and it is fun despite its issues. The good: easy to pick up and play, small AO and unit count (may or may not be good depending on your preferences), and variables to battle setup (Custer brings along 2nd CAV, Custer doesn't divide command, number of Sioux, etc.). The bad: the biggest issue with the game is the Sioux AI. It is rather easy to win as the 7th, just have Reno's battalion press the attack and get Custer's battalion across the Medicine Tail Coulee and attacking settlements ASAP. The Sioux forces will eventually retreat and you'll win. The Sioux AI breaks far too easily, if it pressed the attack it'd win (I played against all three AI settings: balanced, aggressive, and cautious). The game doesn't include the second day of fighting either. Playing as the Sioux becomes a game of how few warriors you can loose in the process of wiping out the 7th; very easy to loose as Sioux, but that requires changing variables all in Custer's favor and lowering your own numbers, 500 is the smallest and 2000 the largest. Overall, I'd suggest at least trying the demo. I consider myself knowledgeable on the topic and think if you're like me, you'll enjoy it; not a lot of Little Bighorn wargames out there.
That's some good info. Thanks I'll check it out.
RE: The Last Stand
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:21 am
by Ranger33
Wow, you guys are very knowledgeable about this battle. Interesting stuff!
I had the opportunity to see the actual battlefield a few years ago, and it was well worth spending an afternoon there. When you look at where the US forces approached from, and where the camp was, it's easy to see how they could not have known what they were up against until the last moment. You can tour the entire area and see the markers showing where each body was found. Pretty sobering to see three or four in a low spot and just imagine them living out their final moments there. It's also interesting how the other companies weren't that far from Custer, but they couldn't see each other due to the terrain. The whole thing highlights how critical battlefield communication is, and how combat of that century could be such a mess when different units were out of sight from each other.
RE: The Last Stand
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:19 pm
by Curtis Lemay
Today being Elvis's birthday, I'm reminded of the contrast between his ignominious death (straining on the pot triggered a heart attack) and Custer's glorious one (died with his boots on in an immortal last stand).
Regardless of how Custer's tactical decisions are judged by history, on the spectrum of deaths, the range has to be from Elvis (at the bottom) to Custer very near the top (with perhaps only the defenders of the Alamo and Thermopylae topping him).
RE: The Last Stand
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:22 pm
by Hexagon
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Today being Elvis's birthday, I'm reminded of the contrast between his ignominious death (straining on the pot triggered a heart attack) and Custer's glorious one (died with his boots on in an immortal last stand).
Regardless of how Custer's tactical decisions are judged by history, on the spectrum of deaths, the range has to be from Elvis (at the bottom) to Custer very near the top (with perhaps only the defenders of the Alamo and Thermopylae topping him).
At least Elvis dont suicide with men that were under their command... Custers death for me was more shameless in the moment cost the life of his men i think they prefer Custer died on his pot and they have in command a more competent commander that think first on their men and not in his glory.
RE: The Last Stand
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:40 pm
by Curtis Lemay
ORIGINAL: Hexagon
At least Elvis dont suicide with men that were under their command... Custers death for me was more shameless in the moment cost the life of his men i think they prefer Custer died on his pot and they have in command a more competent commander that think first on their men and not in his glory.
The worst kind of historical analysis: Use perfect 20:20 hindsight to "predict" the outcome of a battle. Then castigate the participants for not reaching that conclusion in advance.
RE: The Last Stand
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:20 pm
by Hotschi
Comparing the deaths of General Custer and Rock-Star Elvis Presley is comparing apples with oranges.
RE: The Last Stand
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:54 pm
by Curtis Lemay
ORIGINAL: Hotschi
Comparing the deaths of General Custer and Rock-Star Elvis Presley is comparing apples with oranges.
They are exactly the same in that we're all humans and we're all going to die eventually. Our deaths can range from ignominious to glorious.
RE: The Last Stand
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:24 pm
by Yogi the Great
I've been to Little Big Horn Battlefield as well. I think one of the more interesting things about it is that the Indian Victory actually would lead to their loss and removal. Because of the "fame" of Custer and the information (perhaps much of it false or made up) and resulting public opinion the U.S. government tasked the Military with the final removal and defeat of the tribes in the area. One of those historic ironies of a great victory leading to total defeat. Another factor of the area history and resulting battles of course was past dishonoring of treaties and in no small part affected by the finding of Gold in the area and the rush of the "white men" to get it.
RE: The Last Stand
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:08 pm
by Blond_Knight
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
ORIGINAL: Hotschi
Comparing the deaths of General Custer and Rock-Star Elvis Presley is comparing apples with oranges.
They are exactly the same in that we're all humans and we're all going to die eventually. Our deaths can range from ignominious to glorious.
Well if you invade someones home you deserve a violent death. Though I wouldnt call that glorious.
RE: The Last Stand
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:11 am
by Curtis Lemay
ORIGINAL: Blond_Knight
Well if you invade someones home you deserve a violent death. Though I wouldnt call that glorious.
Hmm. Let's see if I've got this straight: The US Cavalry, operating in the US State of Montana against hostile savages, deserved to die.
I guess that means that the Union forces, invading the Confederacy, deserved to die. The Allied armies, invading Germany in 1945, deserved to die. US forces, invading Afghanistan, deserved to die, etc.
RE: The Last Stand
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:30 am
by Orm
operating in the US State of Montana
Montana become a state 1889. More than ten years after the events discussed.
RE: The Last Stand
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:06 am
by OttoVonBlotto
hostile savages [:-]
RE: The Last Stand
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:24 am
by wings7
ORIGINAL: Orm
operating in the US State of Montana
Montana become a state 1889. More than ten years after the events discussed.
Territory of Montana, 1864 to 1889...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montana_Territory
RE: The Last Stand
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:04 am
by Orm
I am a little confused by this. The link only proves that Montana was not yet a state and that was exactly what I said.
RE: The Last Stand
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:34 am
by Toby42
ORIGINAL: Blond_Knight
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
ORIGINAL: Hotschi
Comparing the deaths of General Custer and Rock-Star Elvis Presley is comparing apples with oranges.
They are exactly the same in that we're all humans and we're all going to die eventually. Our deaths can range from ignominious to glorious.
Well if you invade someones home you deserve a violent death. Though I wouldnt call that glorious.
No, it was called :Manifest Destiny" at the time?
RE: The Last Stand
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:07 pm
by Curtis Lemay
ORIGINAL: Orm
operating in the US State of Montana
Montana become a state 1889. More than ten years after the events discussed.
OK, so it was the US Territory of Montana at the time. So what?
RE: The Last Stand
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:19 pm
by wings7
ORIGINAL: Orm
I am a little confused by this. The link only proves that Montana was not yet a state and that was exactly what I said.
Read this...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organized ... ted_States
RE: The Last Stand
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:50 pm
by Lecivius
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
ORIGINAL: Blond_Knight
Well if you invade someones home you deserve a violent death. Though I wouldnt call that glorious.
Hmm. Let's see if I've got this straight: The US Cavalry, operating in the US State of Montana against hostile savages, deserved to die.
I guess that means that the Union forces, invading the Confederacy, deserved to die. The Allied armies, invading Germany in 1945, deserved to die. US forces, invading Afghanistan, deserved to die, etc.
One needs to keep perspective...
Union forces, invading the Confederacy, defeated the standing army.
Allied armies, invading Germany in 1945, defeated the standing army.
US forces, invading Afghanistan, defeated the standing army.
However...
European forces, coming to the American continent, engaged in active genocide for land. The 7th cavalry, in most of it's operations, was no different than the Conquistadors, or Fetterman, or Chivington. If the tribes had not had so much distrust of each other, I dear say history would have been a little different. The end result would probably have remained the same, but there would have been a lot more history.
RE: The Last Stand
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:36 pm
by Orm
I already did read it. And it doesn't change fact one bit.