Matrix Games Forums

Manpower and Oil Consumption were absolutely two huge strategic considerations during WWII, and I would be curious to hear the developers' reasons for not including them in SC3. Inclusion of MP an OC would add a level of complexity to game play, and it would be a real nice design decision to make both of them optional, so that beginners need not bother with them.

The argument that both are abstracted in the current game is not accurate. Playing 'Commander: Europe at War' will easily demonstrate this [and I'm not advocating buying that game as it is multi-player only, and in some areas it is very far behind SC3 in development].

Manpower:
CEaW addresses MP by assigning each country a % level of full manpower based on historical population and draft measures. As the player adds replacements to units, this % drops. As new recruits are drafted, this percentage rises. If the level drops below 75%, your units' effectiveness takes a hit. Below 50%, below 25% another hit. It very accurately portrays the real life manpower issues that all countries faced during WWII. All countries historically had to weigh the balance between casualties and results. This is in no way represented in the current SC3. It is actually quite the opposite if one side gains an MPP advantage, resulting in the taking of losses not mattering because the player van easily replace them with MPP's at no penalty.

Oil Consumption:

CEaW addresses OC by assigning an Oil Production number to each country, and the use of units [air and mechanized] subtracts from this number. If the number hits zero, these types of units cannot be used. SC3 in no way 'abstracts' this hugely important aspect of every countries' strategic planning during WWII. Oil consumption never enters the thoughts or planning of SC3 players.

I am not being negative in these two posts, I think everybody knows that I love SC3 and am very dedicated to it. I also know that I will not change some palyers' opinions who don't want to understand the strategy gap that is caused by leaving these two aspects out. If the developers decision is to never include MP and OC in any future version of SC then I respect that decision. However, in my opinion it would make a great game even greater.

ORIGINAL: Meyer1

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

ORIGINAL: macroeconomics

Personally, I think Minor units should get the production discounts, but they should only be able to be built at one tech level below the German max. Obviously they shouldn't be able to be promoted in the field to the German max either.

As for the Italians, historically, they did not benefit from German technology until mid '41, and even then only in fighters via German engine technology. Maybe have an event that boosts Italian air combat tech to equal that of Germany's 4 months after German air combat tech advances? In practice, the only items I always research as the Italian are industrial, naval warfare and ASW tech. Air combat and ground attack tech are sporadically researched. Ground units are used as garrisons. It's a bit sad, but realistically, the rules cripple the Italians and makes them very vulnerable. Which at least is accurate...

I agree that the Italians should benefit from German aviation tech advances, perhaps at one level below the level available to German units.

It is more than engine technology, as some Italian air units were equipped with German aircraft, probably as the Germans had moved on to improved models.

Not really, the aircraft sent to Italy were up to date models.

As for the game, since Germany is paying their MPP to equip the minors, I don´t see a problem with them having the latest technology. They don´t have a production of thei own.
Perhaps Germany should be allowed to buy for Italy also.

The Italians might have been given up-to-date Bf109s, but AFAIK they were not given Fw190s, the point being that Italy should have access to German aviation tech, but not matching the highest level that Germany has achieved.

Likewise the British gave Hurricanes, principally to the Soviet Union, some of which were used, but mostly new production.

I agree with all that sPzAbt653 said and I like the Commander game, but I must point out that
Commander is not multi-player only, its just that the AI is poor, and the game is best played
as mp. But the Oil and Manpower parts do work well and something like that would work in this
game as well.

I agree with You, oil & manpower were maybe Germany biggest problems in ww2. But to implement it in this game would probably change game mechanics alot and its quite questionable how would it work. Of course-we all understand that resources and manpower are incorporated in MPP. For me-this works fine, but on the other hand maybe some other solution could be incorporated. Maybe only oil should be made as individual resource out of MPP, cause of its great significance on transport, logistics and every other aspect of ww2 warfare. But still, I m very happy with the game so far, only problem I have is poor AI which makes game boooring, cant wait for PBEM game

I didn't feel like retyping my views again so i just copied and pasted them from the other thread we had about manpower.


No country reached its manpower limits because of casualties, not even the USSR. In Germany's case any losses they had during any year (except maybe 1944, I'd have to check) was more than made up by the new class of recruits turning of age.

The reasons Germany had manpower problems wasn't because of casualties, it was because of poor decisions made by the Germans regarding employment of women in industry and not drastically cutting back on their domestic production, like the Russians did. That and the fact that they were trying to field a humongous army and have a tremendous industrial effort at the same time. The Russians were able to pull it off, huge army, huge industrial effort, because they drastically cut domestic production and utilized women in both industry and the armed forces in great numbers.

Both the US and Britain made huge industrial efforts, but neither fielded an army anywhere near as large as they could have. Because they both made the decision to concentrate on production to equip not only themselves but their allies. And also because both made an huge effort in the air, which requires greater industrial effort and less manpower in the field. Any manpower problems Britain had were because of they were trying to keep up with the Jones's, (meaning the US). In other words they were fighting out of their weight class. The same thing applies to Germany also. Both Britain and the US casualties were tiny compared to the USSR or Germany. Britain's were much less than in WW1.

The long and the short of it is simple. To correctly implement manpower into the game would require a whole mini game inside the game. It couldn't just be having manpower points, it would also have to be about how you allocate them to industry or military. And then there is the fact the Germans used slave labor for industry, and obviously those slave labor points cant be used in the military. No thanks, I think MPPS and build limits handle the issue just fine.