Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

If you don't like either of those you have the option in many cases of leaving the hex before the fight. Or moving some out while a core remains to hold the doors open. It's all about choices. [8D]

Exactly my point put ever so much eloquently.

I think that "perfect historical knowledge" combined with the "electronic detachment" to the lives of your electron soldiers may induce players...** myself included ** to let the soldiers hang in too long for a strategic or tactical advantage.

Your point of differentiation is noted i.e. the difference between the base falls and retreat.

Thankfully I have never had to order real men to their death; yet this game makes me stop and ponder the very difficult decisions made 1939 - 1945.

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

No control over retreat direction.

It will almost always be in the worst possible and most mystifying direction possible.

If this game EVER gets redone, I would put a 'button' in for a retreat location/direction. This idiocy of these units going the exact OPPOSITE direction from where they should go defies the imagination. My disaster in Burma with my game against Dan has seen not ONE, not TWO, but THREE horrific retreats dooming units to extinction.

Why is it "idiocy" to expect terrified, wounded, starving, often leaderless troops not to go in any direction that relieves the pain? A rout is not logic in action. There are hundreds of historical examples.

Every retreat isn't like this? One of the major flaws in this game is the land war in more than one aspect, this being just one of them. As much as I enjoy the game its always seemed to me that the land combat was something added as an after thought.

ORIGINAL: Chris H

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: John 3rd




If this game EVER gets redone, I would put a 'button' in for a retreat location/direction. This idiocy of these units going the exact OPPOSITE direction from where they should go defies the imagination. My disaster in Burma with my game against Dan has seen not ONE, not TWO, but THREE horrific retreats dooming units to extinction.

Why is it "idiocy" to expect terrified, wounded, starving, often leaderless troops not to go in any direction that relieves the pain? A rout is not logic in action. There are hundreds of historical examples.

Every retreat isn't like this?

No. Look up Chosin Reservoir. Contrast to the Battle of Guagamela. The first was a retreat. The second a rout.

One of the major flaws in this game is the land war in more than one aspect, this being just one of them. As much as I enjoy the game its always seemed to me that the land combat was something added as an after thought.

Opinions differ.

There are a number of factors that work in a number of combinations. So a retreat could go either way....GP

As Moose said.

If you lose base but stay in hex, that is retreat. If you are thrown out of hex, it is rout.

Of course that is bit different in hexes without base, but basically, if you are thrown out of hex, your troops are not retreating, they are routing.

Wth? You can retreat, use move order in combat mode and your units will do fighting retreat. They won't always be successful, but that's how it is. If you see Japanese landing behind and you don't do anything to save your troops, blame on you. You can always retreat from Johore Baru to Singapore, it's highly unlikely Japanese would get behind you, but even if so, it wouldn't matter anymore. Poor positioning gets punished, it's not the game to blame really.

ORIGINAL: szmike
Wth? You can retreat, use move order in combat mode and your units will do fighting retreat. They won't always be successful, but that's how it is. If you see Japanese landing behind and you don't do anything to save your troops, blame on you.

+1
Retreat is when you order your troops to do so. When an enemy attack pushes your troops out - it is a rout and you really have no ground for complaints

Yes, I agree. If this game were ever remade and I were in charge... [:D] There are three things on my list that need to be reworked:

1. The number of turn phases (I'd use 4 not 3)
2. The surface combat model (I'm looking at you DD who is opening with their 5inch guns at 14k)
3. The land combat model

ORIGINAL: Chris H

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: John 3rd




If this game EVER gets redone, I would put a 'button' in for a retreat location/direction. This idiocy of these units going the exact OPPOSITE direction from where they should go defies the imagination. My disaster in Burma with my game against Dan has seen not ONE, not TWO, but THREE horrific retreats dooming units to extinction.

Why is it "idiocy" to expect terrified, wounded, starving, often leaderless troops not to go in any direction that relieves the pain? A rout is not logic in action. There are hundreds of historical examples.

Every retreat isn't like this? One of the major flaws in this game is the land war in more than one aspect, this being just one of them. As much as I enjoy the game its always seemed to me that the land combat was something added as an after thought.

The land war is pooped on a lot, and yes it's very simple without bells and whistles... but I find it rather fun and engaging. There's no more abstracted nonsense in it than in other portions of the game. Maybe that's the tabletop wargamer in me coming out - I like to maneuver my troops, even if it takes several turns to do so, because I'm used to doing that in tabletop games. It might take 3 turns to take a shot at that objective I went after with 1/4 of my army on the tabletop. A huge part of the fun in that is trying to convince my opponent I'm doing something else entirely. Of course, sometimes there can be no sleight of hand because it'll be obvious what you're doing. Then you just have to go balls to the wall. I think that's what the kids say, anyway.

ORIGINAL: Revthought

Yes, I agree. If this game were ever remade and I were in charge... [:D] There are three things on my list that need to be reworked:

1. The number of turn phases (I'd use 4 not 3)
2. The surface combat model (I'm looking at you DD who is opening with their 5inch guns at 14k)
3. The land combat model

1. I don't understand what you're referring to as phases.

2. I think the surface combat model is about as good as you could get without getting too granular. FWIW, DD guns had about a 20-second flight time at that range (not accounting very well for air resistance on the shell or the arc, but 2500 ft/s average muzzle velocity). Just depends on what you're shooting at. If you really wanted to change the "intelligence" of this thought, all you'd have to do is adjust the ranges in the editor. Change that DD gun max range to 8k yards if you want to. For the record, it's the torpedoes at 18,000 yards that bug me. Nobody hits at that range.

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

1. I don't understand what you're referring to as phases.

night, morning, afternoon

ORIGINAL: szmike

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

1. I don't understand what you're referring to as phases.

night, morning, afternoon

So you're referring to air phases. Because for ships, there are only 2 phases: night and day.

For unloading (amphibious at least), there are 2 phases with 2 sub-phases each.

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: szmike

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

1. I don't understand what you're referring to as phases.

night, morning, afternoon

So you're referring to air phases. Because for ships, there are only 2 phases: night and day.

For unloading (amphibious at least), there are 2 phases with 2 sub-phases each.

not my post, just guessing what author had in mind

ORIGINAL: szmike

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: szmike



night, morning, afternoon

So you're referring to air phases. Because for ships, there are only 2 phases: night and day.

For unloading (amphibious at least), there are 2 phases with 2 sub-phases each.

not my post, just guessing what author had in mind

Ah, well it seemed so plausible that I didn't go back to check.

I am about to experience this retreat direction problem. Have units at Lashio trying to retreat SW on those trails. Will place money that when CR attacks those troops will retreat TOWARDS Katha and not towards safety...

STUPID!

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I am about to experience this retreat direction problem. Have units at Lashio trying to retreat SW on those trails. Will place money that when CR attacks those troops will retreat TOWARDS Katha and not towards safety...

STUPID!

They will likely go west, unless CR came in from the west. If he came in from the west (and IIRC he holds Paoshan as well), then who knows... they might retreat southwest. Maybe.

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I am about to experience this retreat direction problem. Have units at Lashio trying to retreat SW on those trails. Will place money that when CR attacks those troops will retreat TOWARDS Katha and not towards safety...

STUPID!

Use 5 to predict retreat direction, preplan your fight (for current it's too late it seems), so your troops are positioned to retreat the right way next time.

ORIGINAL: szmike

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I am about to experience this retreat direction problem. Have units at Lashio trying to retreat SW on those trails. Will place money that when CR attacks those troops will retreat TOWARDS Katha and not towards safety...

STUPID!

Use 5 to predict retreat direction, preplan your fight (for current it's too late it seems), so your troops are positioned to retreat the right way next time.

Is this the hotkey that shows supply route costs? If so, it is not available in PBEM. You would have to load up a different game and look at the map (the same map, if you're playing a modded map).

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: szmike

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I am about to experience this retreat direction problem. Have units at Lashio trying to retreat SW on those trails. Will place money that when CR attacks those troops will retreat TOWARDS Katha and not towards safety...

STUPID!

Use 5 to predict retreat direction, preplan your fight (for current it's too late it seems), so your troops are positioned to retreat the right way next time.

Is this the hotkey that shows supply route costs? If so, it is not available in PBEM. You would have to load up a different game and look at the map (the same map, if you're playing a modded map).

Afaik it is available just not showing numbers, which may be guessed from experience. Loading just a map in another save is useful, just have to remember which ways are blocked by enemy troops.

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: szmike

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

1. I don't understand what you're referring to as phases.

night, morning, afternoon

So you're referring to air phases. Because for ships, there are only 2 phases: night and day.

For unloading (amphibious at least), there are 2 phases with 2 sub-phases each.

Except the AI, which gets a 5th unloading phase that occurs in the middle of its planning before the turn execution begins.