Is the German 1941 campaign difficult?

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: No idea

ORIGINAL: Ice

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain




Considering that a high majority of the Forums writers and players are pro Russian, the rhetoric can get pretty deep on occasions along with the mass of players playing the Russians swamping the amount of German players. I for one am a German player since us Blonde hair blue eye people need to stick together ;-P

Most of "us", German Players that I know, have given it away and moved on to other games, as the consensus is that its
too skewered to the Russians.
Hopefully WITE2 will be better.

Well, irl things were "skewered" to the soviets. I guess the problem is people dont like as much to play an unbalanced simulation as playing a more or less balanced game. Dont mistake my post, I understand the rationale for not as many people wanting to play axis as the soviets, but the answer to "why is that?"is in the very nature of the game. It is more a simulation amd less a game.

I personally like the "Quality" over "Quantity" battle myself. See what I can do with less if you will (Although "quantity" has a "quality" all in and of itself). Although if you have a quantity of "plump" chicks I think I would take the "quality" skinny one ;-P Just saying. I believe I read a long time ago that the Russians didn't rape the skinny ladies in Berlin when they sacked it, they went after the plump ones, so the Russians definitely are after the quantity score on that front ;-O

[56ajax]

I think the game is skewed depending on the capacity of the german opponent; if they play like Pelton then it is skewed to the Germans and if they stuff their opening turns then it is skewed to the Russkies. So it all comes down to discussing the style in which both sides would like to play and describing that in House Rules.

[sillyflower]

I agree that game balance depends on the skill level -assuming both players are equal. The higher the skill level, the more the balance tips towards the Hitlerites. At lower levels the G player does not have the skill to crush the R in the initial blitzkreig.

[No idea]

The problem is in the "win" concept most players have. If you have played this game for a long time, you end up accepting that winning as the germans against a similar skill opponent means holding a line in Russia when the game ends in 1945. The problem is that most players out there dont see that as winning, so they dont like to play as Germany. On top of that, it requires more skill, as it is extremely painful, against a similar skill soviet player, to commit any mistake during the first turn.

I have to say I understand both points of view, after having played the game for two years, but, if the game wants to appeal to a wider audience (something good for bussiness) then it needs to make things more balanced based and less reality based, imho, giving the germans more opportunities to really win than irl.

[Stelteck]

In WITP AE, there is a scenario "greater japan" where the japan have additionnal ressources to prepare for a long war.

It is a very fun scenario with lots of fight.

Maybe additional scenario could have existed with uchronical configuration. (For WITE it is a little late, but for WITE2 maybe it could be investigated).

I think a scenario with a stronger Russia early but a stronger germany later could be great fun.

(Like in this alternate history, Soviet union took seriously the warnings of german attack and was not taken by surprise. But in the other hand, England failed battle of the atlantic and was not able to keep on fighting. As a consequence, no west front and germany was able to fully commit ressources east, so no withdrawal of troops to the west and more german equipment west)

A scenario like this could be use for "balance play", while traditionnal scenario would be more historical.

[HermanGraf]

I believe the problem lies in the original concept. Capturing cities and resources really does not help Germany in the long war. Capturing the oil fields in Baku in 1942/43 should give a big boost to the campaign. I don't understand why this isn't modeled, instead it is straight modeled historically regardless of the victories you have. Why bother capturing the Crimea or even going south to the Caucasus??

I really hope WiTE2 plays with historical and ahistorical concepts depending on your progress as the Germans. And major hits should be taken as the soviets if cities are captured with factories in tact. Making it a resource war would make strategic bombings more useful, contesting Ukraine for as long as possible as soviets would be a great battle, etc.. etc...

As people said WiTE is incomplete, GREAT but incomplete, WiTW is more of a complete game, and I hope WiTE2 really nails it!

[Sammy5IsAlive]

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

In WITP AE, there is a scenario "greater japan" where the japan have additionnal ressources to prepare for a long war.

It is a very fun scenario with lots of fight.

Maybe additional scenario could have existed with uchronical configuration. (For WITE it is a little late, but for WITE2 maybe it could be investigated).

I think a scenario with a stronger Russia early but a stronger germany later could be great fun.

(Like in this alternate history, Soviet union took seriously the warnings of german attack and was not taken by surprise. But in the other hand, England failed battle of the atlantic and was not able to keep on fighting. As a consequence, no west front and germany was able to fully commit ressources east, so no withdrawal of troops to the west and more german equipment west)

A scenario like this could be use for "balance play", while traditionnal scenario would be more historical.

I don't think strengthening the Soviets in 41 would be a good idea - in a game between two players of equal skill level the Axis would get bogged down very quickly and stuggle to achieve the kill-count and disruption to industry that's required for a game to continue to be competitive past 42.

On the other hand, I think the other side of the equation (the Axis keeping hold of the divisions that normally withdraw west and also getting increased reinforcements into 43) would be very interesting and definitely worth an alternate scenario. Reading the AARs between good evenly matched players it seems to me that 43 is often a bit of a non-event. The German army has lost its teeth and has to go into damage limitation mode and the Soviet player only needs to make modest progress and ensure that they fight enough battles to wear the Axis forces down enough that they start to fall apart in 44/45. If you strengthened the Axis in 43 and moved the 'draw line' to the front line at the beginning of the game you could get a really exciting 43 where in a game between equal players both would feel they needed to attack (or at least stand their ground and fight) in order to win the game.

[56ajax]

ORIGINAL: No idea

The problem is in the "win" concept most players have. If you have played this game for a long time, you end up accepting that winning as the germans against a similar skill opponent means holding a line in Russia when the game ends in 1945. The problem is that most players out there dont see that as winning, so they dont like to play as Germany. On top of that, it requires more skill, as it is extremely painful, against a similar skill soviet player, to commit any mistake during the first turn.

I have to say I understand both points of view, after having played the game for two years, but, if the game wants to appeal to a wider audience (something good for bussiness) then it needs to make things more balanced based and less reality based, imho, giving the germans more opportunities to really win than irl.

I generally agree with your comments and thats why I try to find German opponents who like playing the game as opposed to winning at all costs. My current opponent wanted to play an historical game and I was happy to oblige. Whilst his opening turn was a touch too generous I responded by counter attacking as much as possible instead of running away. Counter attacking is useless btw but it was inline with the spirit of our house rules.

I tend not to play as the german as it is much more technical and a move like the Lvov pocket I find ridiculous.

I would be reluctant to move away from an historical game because it is not a fantasy game, but the Russo german war, though there is room for whatif scenarios like others have said.

Perhaps one of the problems with the game is that no one plays as incompetently as the Russians fought in 1941

[vonik]

Like in so many Eastern Front games (the vast majority), the dynamics is designed in such a way that everything happens in the first 3 opening weeks .
These represent for the German player 80 % of the game .
Depending on the game there always is one best opening and plenty of bad or very bad openings .
Once the German player found out THE best opening, he can repeat it mechanically in every game .
For example in WitE it is bombing AFs, optimising rail conversion, splitting PzDs and closing the Lvov Pocket for the first turn .

However when the German player plays anything worse than the best opening, he always looses in the long run .
So in a way the Russian player mostly has a quite passive style (he can do nothing very intelligent in the first month anyway) waiting for German mistake(s) .

Of course this is nothing like history where the incompetent, inflexible, panicked, uninformed and disorganised Soviet High Command kept on ordering attacks for armies that didn't exist anymore from places that were already in German hands .
The miracle that historically happened was that the simple wear and tear of German mechanised units joined to adverse weather conditions reduced their available machines to something anywhere between 10 and 30% of what they were 4 months earlier .
Only a small part of that unavailability was due to Soviet combat actions .

But a game which would be really historical would be a transport, repair and spare part simulator what wouldn't appeal much to a wargamer

[gmtello]

Hope wite2 keep the flavour of wite. Witw more complete but Not as fun as wite . Normally as German player u lose most of your games But u obtain fun playing unless russian keeps retreating till 43