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Because if the objection is that your are shooting half a dozen AMRAAMs at a Flanker and that it EVADES them, then we're in a different game court altogether.

Have a look at the existing discussion about AMRAAM damage here: fb.asp?m=4308340

Yes, I'm talking about the survivability.

Hi Guys

I've been testing with this scenario and in 10 runs the F-35's won every time shooting from max range.

I didn't see the Flankers take more than 2 hits and survive although 2 hits wasn't uncommon. Usually, if it survived the Flanker was 33% damaged with a number of destroyed or damaged components. Did see a few insta kill cockpit hits too[8D]

Could you guys please show what you're seeing. You can grab my test scenario here if it saves you a few.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pagpjtqu437h4 ... t.zip?dl=0

Thanks

Mike

Thanks for that. I think that's what I'm talking about. I think the damage mode is a brilliant idea, but for now it needs some enhancement.[:)]

SPOILERS

I really thought this was a great scenario when I played it a few weeks ago. It's challenging, sure, but with a good strategy I was able to sink the entire carrier group on the first night with no losses. The key for me was massing my fighters and taking advantage of the different loadouts at Iwakuni. Here's what I did:

-Immediately launch all F-22s from Iwo and send them north towards the Tsushima Strait (Korea Strait?). A little while later, launch your tankers, EP-3s, a P-1, and E-2Ds from around Tokyo, heading west for the Strait. Then launch your F-35s from Iwakuni. Gather up your whole force over the straits, refuel the fighters, then head west in a massed sweep. The objective of this first sweep for me was to 1. locate the Laioning group (with the P-1 following behind the fighters) and 2. Attrit its air group. I had my TALD-armed F-35s launch in the direction of the CV group as soon as I found it (this soaked up some AAMs and SAMs), but the key was concentrating against the converging Chinese fighters and swatting down the stream of J-15s that come up from the carrier. Don't get greedy. Stay as far away as you can from the AEW assets so that the fighters can't localize you enough to engage effectively. I also set my F-22s to jettison their fuel tanks when evading. In this first sweep I was able to pretty much annihilate the carrier's air group (damaging a J-15 with one missile is as good as destroying it, because you're going to sink the carrier before it can get back into the air anyway), and also get a pair of F-35s close enough to down two of the carrier's AEW helicopters. One tactic I found works well is to have an F-35 or F-22 hang back outside of engagement range and use its radar to illuminate the enemy, while all the other fighters keep EMCON. This helps both your AMRAAM accuracy and makes it harder for the enemy to localize your jets (just to be clear, I micromanage my fighters to ensure they're behaving exactly how I want them to).

-After withdrawing, I reset the F-35s so that all had an AAW internal loadout, and the F-22s to internal AMRAAMs only (no fuel tanks). When all aircraft were once again ready I launched another massed sweep along the lines described above. The objective of this sweep was to attrit the remaining CAPs over the East China Sea and knock down the AWACS closest to where the carrier will be on your third sweep (which is the strike against the carrier), and its replacement. If I remember correctly, this ended up being the A-50 for me. This sweep was easier than the first, from what I remember, and I managed to take out the Su-30 and J-10 CAPs, as well as swat down the reinforcing J-11s, which was made easier a pair of F-22s downing the AWACS early on. I had these two stick around after they shot it down and take care of the A-50 that came up as a replacement as well.

-For the third attack, the F-22s on Iwo are out of ammo so they don't factor, but I didn't need them. I had my F-35s load up with JSOW BROACHs and sent all the F-35s at the carrier at the same time. After the two sweeps earlier in the day, there was almost no opposition in the air. Since the JSOWs don't have an active seeker, and at this point you are launching them at night, the carrier group, which is operating under EMCON, won't see the incoming weapons until they start impacting, and by then it's too late. This strike managed to sink every vessel in the group without any getting off a shot. I had the B-1 standing by with the LRASMs, but there was nothing for it to shoot at after the JSOWs did their work.

Again, really fun scenario. I really appreciate that it rewards you for applying real principles of war like Mass and Objective. Thanks guys!

For the Showpieces the damage mode was actually not a problem at all because I managed to kill the carrier with just 24 lrasms without destroying a single plane. But in Hail Mary, I found out that even rarely seen, some flankers do survived 2 hits.

I will post some test scenarios tonight.

ORIGINAL: AceOfSpadeszzzzzz

For the Showpieces the damage mode was actually not a question at all because I managed to kill the carrier with just 24 lrasms without destroying a single plane. But in Hail Mary, I found out that even rarely seen, but some flankers do survived 2 hits.

The damage model is exactly the same in both scenarios so shouldn't make a difference.

Ok if you do come across a 3 hit Flanker again and manage to catch a save it would be great.

Thanks!

Mike

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Hi Guys

I've been testing with this scenario and in 10 runs the F-35's won every time shooting from max range.

I didn't see the Flankers take more than 2 hits and survive although 2 hits wasn't uncommon. Usually, if it survived the Flanker was 33% damaged with a number of destroyed or damaged components. Did see a few insta kill cockpit hits too[8D]

Could you guys please show what you're seeing. You can grab my test scenario here if it saves you a few.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pagpjtqu437h4 ... t.zip?dl=0

Thanks

Mike

I e-mailed you a save, with four F-35s against two J-15s. I don't suffer losses but it takes >10 AMRAAMs to put down the two J-15s, in five consecutive restarts.

Thanks Airborne Rifles, I will give that a try. I had been trying a more tentative "whittling down" strategy but it is taking forever to plink these guys off, so I'll try the massed attack instead.

ORIGINAL: AceOfSpadeszzzzzz

Thanks for that. I think that's what I'm talking about. I think the damage mode is a brilliant idea, but for now it needs some enhancement.[:)]

Ok just got a Flanker that took 2 hits and its still flying. Its now at 60.2% damage, components are really messed up and its RTB.

What's broke? This is exactly what should happen IMHO.

Mike

I took a closer look at database.

F-35 and J-10 = 5 damage points
F-22 and J-15/Su-30 = 10 damage points
AMRAAM warhead is just 3 dp, compared to bigger warhead of chinese/russian missiles with 6-8 dp

So we just have met too many lucky flankers. I think Mike is totally right.

Thanks Airborne Rifles for your AAR. I finally got the carrier with combined strike from torpedoes, LRASM and JSOW

Francesco

Sry but after dozens of test I still can't show you a 3hit flanker.:/ Maybe my memory goes wrong.(BTW find it impossible to get enough pts for victory in Hail Mary, do you guys have any idea?)

I think there's a misunderstanding. What I want to say is that for now this damage mode seems only takes sensors, mounts, comms/datalinks and propulsion in concern, maybe we should consider the damage that can be dealt by a warhead to some other systems like the flight control system, and also the aerodynamics. That's the "enhancement" I want to see in the future.

ORIGINAL: AceOfSpadeszzzzzz

I think there's a misunderstanding. What I want to say is that for now this damage mode seems only takes sensors, mounts, comms/datalinks and propulsion in concern, maybe we should consider the damage that can be dealt by a warhead to some other systems like the flight control system, and also the aerodynamics. That's the "enhancement" I want to see in the future.

I think there is kind of a failure to crash cycle as the aircraft takes on more damage.
Mike

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

ORIGINAL: AceOfSpadeszzzzzz

I think there's a misunderstanding. What I want to say is that for now this damage mode seems only takes sensors, mounts, comms/datalinks and propulsion in concern, maybe we should consider the damage that can be dealt by a warhead to some other systems like the flight control system, and also the aerodynamics. That's the "enhancement" I want to see in the future.

I think there is kind of a failure to crash cycle as the aircraft takes on more damage.
Mike

I have to agree with this as a pilot. I think the existing subsystem damage is modeled nicely, but flight controls, hydraulics, etc and structural fatigue should be a larger factor as these are what will lead to a crash, not just the engines. If a C-130/Y-8 takes two hits to the same wing I can't imagine it would be usable at all, or even still attached. I don't care how small the warhead is.

Had the same when I was playing DCS. Besides this I think damage that is dealt to things like the MFD in the cockpit should also be considered since it will severely reduce combat capability. But since it's not a flight simulator so I will be fine if it can't be modified.

Boy, I got through this JUST by the skin of my teeth. For some reason it didn't work out for me as Airborne Rifles described: by the time my A/C were turned around for the 2nd and 3rd sorties, the carrier group had moved far enough down the coast that an another entire set of CAP was protecting, and there was no point in time where I wasn't facing stiff resistance. I ran out of missiles long before they ran out of planes. In desperation I ran my subs at max speed, launched the B-1 and fired off all the LRASMs (all of which were shot down), loaded up all the JSOWs and fired them at close range (all of them were shot down all as well as all of the remaining F-35s). At this point I had literally no air resources left, other than a couple F-22s with no missiles to arm them with. There were only two subs anywhere near the carrier group, one of which was promptly sank at this point. I managed to sneak the last one within range and fired every torpedo at the carrier, only a few of which hit but it was still floating. At this point I assumed I was done, but actually the carrier slowly took on water and then sank and the scenario ended. Whew.

Actually you don't need to bother about the bandits at the beginning. Since they can't detect your lrasms, their AEW can't, too. So you just need to locate the CSG, shoot 24 lrasms and make sure your missiles turn their radar on when they are about 1.5nm from the carrier, then, mission completed.