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RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:55 pm
by Lowpe
ORIGINAL: Alfred
There are many existing labour saving opportunities which complaining players stubbornly refuse to use. To mention just a few, both the Auto Convoy and the CS control, if used correctly, can reduce considerably the amount of clicking. Instead of 1 day turns, multi day turns will cut clicks by at least 50%. The quid pro quo is less player control. Given the choice very few players elect that exchange.[/I][/color]
This is fascinating. Anymore tidbits on this score would you like to share?
I use and abuse CS convoys a lot. Love em to death.
Auto Convoy I have toyed with and could never really get the convoys to be escorted all the time. Granted I was simply supplying the Japanese Islands, perhaps they thought the local ASW search was sufficient? Perhaps I will try again.
I am a big fan of 2 day turns. It really slows the tempo of the game down...as you really have to plan ahead. Deliberate Attacks for example will continue onto a 2nd day unless they fall below a 1-1 attack on the first day. Bombing and Sweeping require more thought as does plotting ship movement, engagement ranges etc. I wish more people would play this way. I must confess I never went past 2 day turnaround in any meaningful way, but I am intrigued by it.
Auto Sub operations - here the conventional wisdom is to leave it alone. But I have no first hand experience. Perhaps there is a place for its use?
Auto pilot placement -- I have looked at it and it seems to simply look at experience level and not skill.
Auto replacement of planes: I have used this and it tends to teleport plane splinters all over the place. A dozen repairing fighters will show up in Magwe when the original 2 planes arrived at Tokyo for instance. It does seem to work very well for squadrons on carriers however.
Anything else?
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:07 pm
by BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: geofflambert
What glory is there to defeating an AI? Any AI. You can ask Kasparov about Deep Blue, but WitP-AE was never going to have Deep Blue. AI is for practice. Glory comes from victory against someone who has a record. I have a record. It isn't superlative. I have always won in short order as the Allied player but I have not yet won as the J player. Working on it.
"Glory" by definition means adulation of other players who are telling you what a fine player you are. I don't feel I need that validation at my age, and I most definitely would struggle to be considered a better player than most of the PBEM devotees here.
I play the AI to better my own performance and learn how the game goes - not just the mechanics but the different possibilities as time progresses and the Allied strength and position take shape. It is still quite interesting and I don't have to make promises of returning game turns on a schedule I probably can't keep. The freedom to do what you choose when you choose is what retirement is about. Oh, BTW - it's time for my nap! [:D]
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:03 pm
by RyanCrierie
I'd like to see a WITP2 with
A.) Streamlined production system open to BOTH sides. The US had MANY MANY irons in the fire -- entire aircraft programs were laid down and then abruptly cancelled -- F6F-6 Hellcat anyone?
B.) All variables placed into scenario file -- no hard coding Japanese AA or damage control quality at different time periods into the EXE.
C.) A "war card" system similar to that attempted in Carriers At War, but intelligently designed so that adding your own war cards would be easy. Use them to represent various "issues" that might affect an operational planner -- fire at aircraft factory affects HELLCAT production, etc.
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:36 pm
by paradigmblue
ORIGINAL: RyanCrierie
I'd like to see a WITP2 with
A.) Streamlined production system open to BOTH sides. The US had MANY MANY irons in the fire -- entire aircraft programs were laid down and then abruptly cancelled -- F6F-6 Hellcat anyone?
B.) All variables placed into scenario file -- no hard coding Japanese AA or damage control quality at different time periods into the EXE.
C.) A "war card" system similar to that attempted in Carriers At War, but intelligently designed so that adding your own war cards would be easy. Use them to represent various "issues" that might affect an operational planner -- fire at aircraft factory affects HELLCAT production, etc.
+1 to all of the above. A robust vehicle/device/aircraft/ship production and research system and tech tree would be fantastic.
In addition, my wishlist would include:
* Globe based map with 20mi hexes. No off-map bases - the map is the whole world... leaving open the possibility of adding in expansions that add other theaters of the war. Add zoom functionality.
* Baloogan's reporting interface on the map - each spotting, combat event, etc. is marked with an icon in the order phase of the turn, and mousing over it would show the combat/event report.
* 20mi hex rather than 40, with more granularity to ground units - more regiments, brigades, battalion level to correspond with the small hex size.
* Better visual representation of ground and air combat. I want to see what my artillery is hitting, or if my interceptors are climbing to reach the enemy, or scrambling from the runway, or diving on bombers. All of this should remain very abstracted, but seeing these things happen would add a lot.
* Engineer units being able to build roads and railroads (for high time/supply costs that vary with terrain type)
* Show ground unit routing on map - so I can order a unit to move to hex A, and then to hex B.
* Add a second way to assign air missions: right-click a target, select a mission, like "ground attack", and then select from a screen any eligible air units that can participate and escort that mission.
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:41 am
by Xargun
I am quite surprised if Matrix hasn't looked into Crowd-funding a WitP AE 2. Lots of companies are using that to fund questionable product lines. With the popularity of this game, at $100 a pop I bet they could crowd fund several hundred thousand for a new version. Heck, they could even outsource it to some other development studio to handle but maintain control over it. Not sure who would design / code it, but I'm sure there are some fans out there with the skills and desires...
To throw my 2 cents in I also us CS convoys as much as I can - pretty much everything moving resources / oil between the Home Islands and Korea is handled by a CS convoy - sometimes I just wish we had 5 waypoints instead of only 3.
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:42 am
by zuluhour
Thinking ten thousand would be a stretch..
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:45 am
by Xargun
At $100 a pop it only requires 1000 people to hit $100K. How many copies has Matrix sold? has to be a couple thousand. And some people would donate more than $100. Heck personally I'd probably go $250 without blinking for this game - the return over the years is priceless.
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:32 am
by LeeChard
ORIGINAL: Xargun
At $100 a pop it only requires 1000 people to hit $100K. How many copies has Matrix sold? has to be a couple thousand. And some people would donate more than $100. Heck personally I'd probably go $250 without blinking for this game - the return over the years is priceless.
Count me in. I'd be glad to throw in a hundred bucks for the project.
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:39 am
by witpqs
ORIGINAL: Xargun
At $100 a pop it only requires 1000 people to hit $100K. How many copies has Matrix sold? has to be a couple thousand. And some people would donate more than $100. Heck personally I'd probably go $250 without blinking for this game - the return over the years is priceless.
With crowd-funding you (almost always) get the product for your contribution, so those donations would be subtracted from sales. No gain.
The number of people who would/could fund a larger amount or fund plus purchase would I think be small.
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:47 am
by BBfanboy
I would contribute if I was convinced that ten thousand bucks would do the trick. But then I think:
- a single good programmer would probably be paid around $80K-$100K a year.
- although lots of coding already exists out there, it is protected by intellectual property rights so it cannot be ported over to the new game.
- a design team would have to come up with an interface that is both easy to use and very flexible in the control it gives the user. Voice commands?
- coding and testing on so grand a scale would likely take over a year.
- once the new game seemed mostly de-bugged, it would need to be published and marketed.
- ongoing mods and updates would be required.
I am guesstimating that such a project would run $300K+, and take at least two years. I need more convincing to part with my retirement income with no guarantees! [:(]
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:06 pm
by witpqs
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
I would contribute if I was convinced that ten thousand bucks would do the trick. But then I think:
- a single good programmer would probably be paid around $80K-$100K a year. x2 or x3 depending on many things.
- although lots of coding already exists out there, it is protected by intellectual property rights so it cannot be ported over to the new game.
- a design team would have to come up with an interface that is both easy to use and very flexible in the control it gives the user. Voice commands?
- coding and testing on so grand a scale would likely take over a year.
- once the new game seemed mostly de-bugged, it would need to be published and marketed.
- ongoing mods and updates would be required.
I am guesstimating that such a project would run $300K+, and take at least two years. I need more convincing to part with my retirement income with no guarantees! [:(]
That underestimates the hours needed by quite a lot. Have a look back at the team that did WITP-AE and I think you will arrive at much higher figures for people needed, hours needed, calendar time needed, money needed (if not all volunteer).
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:11 pm
by InfiniteMonkey
The funding method that makes the most sense for any WitP:AE 2 game is a monthly fee like Everquest, World of Warcraft, etc. Frankly, if you're talking about a game you spend years on, that is the one you should demand as a player. Let's take the examples already cited. Suppose 2000 players that would buy and play the game.
If you sell 2000 copies at $100 per copy, you gross $200,000. Nice money, but if you pay a programmer ~$100k/year - and you'll have to pay that or more to get a decent one - you get two years and you're done... no ongoing support because the guy/gal has a life to live and probably a family to feed. Oh, and that leaves nothing for marketing, hosting, etc. and assumes no production costs. In other words... yeah, not gonna happen.
If you have 2000 subscribers at $120/year;$45/qtr then you get $240,000 - $360,000 PER YEAR to host, maintain, etc. the game. You now have a budget to employ a programmer to work on the bug fixes and hopefully the changes that players want to see in the game. What could michaelm do with WitP:AE if he could work on it full time?
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:30 pm
by Yaab
More publicity is needed. Basically, Kasparov vs Jap AI - a five year WiTP:AE game on a solitary peak in Iceland with a live feed and worldwide peanut gallery. Obviously, Kasparov would be elligible to play "Dwarf Fortress" on Hard on weekends to decompress.
Remember Deep Blue!
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:31 pm
by witpqs
The team would need to be far larger than you guys are visualizing. Here are the credits for WITP-AE, from the manual:
23.0 CREDITS
Our thanks to Gary Grigsby, Joel Billings
and Keith Brors for the original “War in the
Pacific” and for their help and support on
the Admiral’s Edition project.
23.1 ADMIRAL’S EDITION TEAM
PROJECT MANAGEMENT
Joe Wilkerson - Project Lead, Naval
OOB for IJN Surface Combatants
AIR TEAM
Ian Kibler (TheElf) - Team Lead, air art
Thomas Elliot (TimTom) - OOB Research
Michael McFarland (michaelm) - Programming
Bartshé Miller (Cathartes) - Air Art
NAVAL TEAM
John Eldrege (JWE) - Naval Team Lead,
OOB Research, Land Devices
Justin Prince (Tankerace) - Allied
OOB Research, Naval Devices
Don Bowen - Programming
GROUND TEAM
Andy McPhie - Team Lead, OOB
research, AI Lead script writer
Gert Heidelberg (Kereguelen) - OOB Research
Joel Szabat (Blackhorse) - OOB
Research, US AI script writer
James Armstrong (BigJ62) - Map,
Land, AI and Editor programming
MAP TEAM
Andrew Brown - Team Lead, Map Development
BETA TEAM
Bill Olson (wdolson) - Team Lead
and Land programming
Brady Mulhausen - Tester, AI Unit Testing
Mike Scholl - Tester
Halsey - Tester
Joe Chandler (Sonny II) - Tester
Rob Carpenter (jrcar) - Tester
Steve Sanchez (ChezDaJez) - Tester
Michael Drager (Yamato Hugger) - Tester
Andrew Kurtz - Tester
Tony Luke - Tester
SHIP ART
John Eldredge (JWE)
Kelley LaBelle (TOMLABEL), also
additional icon art, etc.
Brian Wisher (BigB)
REPORTING
Markus Baumeister (WOOS)
MANUAL EDITORS
Forest Webb (Treespider) - Manual, land/
map research, land team design
Ray Fantone (Skyros) – Manual
screen shots and pictures
SCENARIOS
S001 - Master Campaign Scenario - AE Team
S002 - Alternate Master Campaign
Scenario - AndyMac
S003 - Coral Sea - Kristian Fischer, Naval
OOB for IJN Carriers and Submarines
S004 - GuadMod - Nikademus
S005 - Aleutians - Kristian Fischer
SPECIAL THANKS
Chris Richards (Drongo), Richard Porter (Kid)
VSWG, dw61, AdmiralDadman, Mike Kramer
23.2 MATRIX GAMES
EXECUTIVE PRODUCER
David Heath
ASSOCIATE PRODUCER
Erik Rutins
ART DIRECTOR
Marc von Martial
BOX AND LOGO DESIGN
Marc von Martial
MANUAL DESIGN AND LAYOUT
Marc von Martial
322
GRAPHIC ARTISTS
Marc von Martial, Jim Martin
VIDEO SEQUENCE
Barry Munden
PUBLIC RELATIONS & MARKETING
Sean Drummy
PRODUCTION ASSISTANT
Gregory Wilcox
ADMINISTRATION
Liz Stoltz
DISTRIBUTOR SALES MANAGER
Ross Jepson
BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT MANAGER
Karlis Rutins, Lance Stoltz
SERIOUS GAMES PROJECT MANAGER
Shaun Wallace, David Heath
CUSTOMER SUPPORT STAFF
Daniel Heath, Alex Fiedler, Andrew Williams
FORUM ADMINISTRATION
Andrew Williams, Marc von Martial, Erik
Rutins , David Heath, Paul Vebber
WEB-DATABASE DESIGN & DEVELOPMENT
Alex Fiedler
NETWORK AND SYSTEM ADMINISTRATOR
Mike Vahan
NETWORK & PC SUPPORT
Ron Duquesnel
QUALITY ASSURANCE LEAD
Erik Rutins
VERY SPECIAL THANKS
Ron Tedesco, Debra Pugh, Renee
Schoenfelder, Marti Nagy, Bob Lippman,
Thomas Heath, Yvonne Heath.
MATRIX NEXGEN
Alexander Rutins, David Vebber, Megan
Vebber, Andrew Heath, Nicholas Heath,
Shane Heath, Austin Stoltz, Noah Stoltz,
Cameron Eckenfels, Hannah Eckenfels,
Heidi Fiedler, Kai Cloer and Erik Conkling
OUR STRENGTH
We thank God for giving us the ability and strength
to complete this project and follow our dream.
We would also like to thank our families
and friends for giving us their non-stop
love and support during this project.
It looks like the Matrix contribution was significant during development, not just beginning with sales, etc. Still, even if you do not count the team members from Matrix the team was large and it took - what? - 4 years was it?
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:55 pm
by Grfin Zeppelin
Was the game comcercially successfull ?
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:03 pm
by BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin
Was the game comcercially successfull ?
Marginally I think - in large part from the buzz in this forum and user-created mods that keep it interesting to newcomers.
If it were a big hit Matrix et al would have funded a similar project to update it again.
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:08 pm
by zuluhour
+1 to the monkey in the front row.
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:09 pm
by witpqs
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin
Was the game comcercially successfull ?
Marginally I think - in large part from the buzz in this forum and user-created mods that keep it interesting to newcomers.
If it were a big hit Matrix et al would have funded a similar project to update it again.
Yeah, as games go this is a *very* serious game so it must be a niche market.
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:35 pm
by Grfin Zeppelin
I see, thanks for the answers.
It has however an amazingly long shelflife [:D]
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:43 pm
by BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin
I see, thanks for the answers.
It has however an amazingly long shelflife [:D]
The game requires amazingly long effort to play, so we OCD people tend to stick with it!