Matrix Games Forums

How can I build a defence around Pskov

An expert in this forum has posted such a defense .. albeit at the sacrifice of the center ..

Soviet T1 positions are Pskov and landbrige (Orsha - Vitebsk line). Pskov normally 27th Army and for landbridge replace some available Western Front army commander and equipmement and reorganize these armies to take tasks. Pskov you had a line but landbrige not. Lucky you it was not exploited. Dvina line from Polotsk then LB and start to occupy Dnepr line. South give up Romanian border and occupy Dnestr line positions. Prevent move to Southern Front rear around Rudnytsa level. Turns 2-4 soviet will be able to hold and delay in north and center because Germans had fuel just for two turns drive. They have to wait panzers are refueled and infantry to catch up. South land is more open and some late activated panzers have fuel longer. Dont forget Romanian border is still close to supply them. So continuous fall back to river line. T1 and T2 you should use much of rail to move quality troops from south.
What comes to rail supply it only helps when rail is repaired. No need to protect rail lines if you cant slow German rail repair. Normally can't.
Thats by my half of 41 summer human game experience. What hurts is losing experienced troops and manpower. Good pockets early game makes Soviet 41 summer painfull. Dont give up yet. Learn what Soviet can do and what Germans can do.

T2 Pskov retreated even Germans have no much fuel left. Center easiest route is given for free and Soviets are lying behind Dnepr. South looks better. Probably some Soviets were not able to follow and are left behind. Generally North looks empty.

Because I overestimate the Axis panzers' reach, seems I was so afraid to be pocketed and all my counters destroyed that I became chickenshit. I just do not know what the Axis player can or cannot do.

Truth be told, on the North at T2 I was confused and helpless about what to do next. All I saw was that he could fly in my rear and surround me at Pskov if I didn't move from there, or simply continue pass Velikiye Luki and go right to flank towards Moscow.

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

How can I build a defence around Pskov

An expert in this forum has posted such a defense .. albeit at the sacrifice of the center ..

If you are referring to my AAR post "Defense of the Soviet Union begins one hex west of Pskov" then I'm by all means no expert. I will never claim I'm an expert in anything since we are always learning

Building a defense against Panzers is difficult at best. Even harder when you are just beginning. Believe it or not playing the German side makes you a much better Soviet player. But if you haven't done so already there are some good AARs out there with good defenses. If you have questions just pm me, I will answer.

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

How can I build a defence around Pskov

An expert in this forum has posted such a defense .. albeit at the sacrifice of the center ..

If you are referring to my AAR post "Defense of the Soviet Union begins one hex west of Pskov" then I'm by all means no expert. I will never claim I'm an expert in anything since we are always learning

Building a defense against Panzers is difficult at best. Even harder when you are just beginning. Believe it or not playing the German side makes you a much better Soviet player. But if you haven't done so already there are some good AARs out there with good defenses. If you have questions just pm me, I will answer.

Using Bloom's Taxonomy as a guideline you have demonstrated to me at the very least application level thinking about Pskov including strategic details of moving elite units into exact positions, and setting up ambushes. What is the interesting question is .. can Moscow be held? And if it is lost ..can Belin still be taken in time for a victory? The problem is that opponents quit before the Moscow question is answered

Drakken

For what is worth you are going through all the experiences we have all been through at some point in the game! [:)]

Axis in 1941 is a beast, and the first two turns you are mostly a spectator.

The beast will slow, the real deciders are up to turn 18 at the gates of Moscow etc. This will be invaluable experience. Next time you will know not to regret the loss of the Soviet army in 1941 but accept it as a write off. And even to sacrifice more for the time and space for blizzard and the next army you will build from 1942 on.

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Crackaces



An expert in this forum has posted such a defense .. albeit at the sacrifice of the center ..

If you are referring to my AAR post "Defense of the Soviet Union begins one hex west of Pskov" then I'm by all means no expert. I will never claim I'm an expert in anything since we are always learning

Building a defense against Panzers is difficult at best. Even harder when you are just beginning. Believe it or not playing the German side makes you a much better Soviet player. But if you haven't done so already there are some good AARs out there with good defenses. If you have questions just pm me, I will answer.

Using Bloom's Taxonomy as a guideline you have demonstrated to me at the very least application level thinking about Pskov including strategic details of moving elite units into exact positions, and setting up ambushes. What is the interesting question is .. can Moscow be held? And if it is lost ..can Belin still be taken in time for a victory? The problem is that opponents quit before the Moscow question is answered

Of one of the two games left I can confirm 100% on turn 16 that Moscow will not fall before mud.

T3 SITREP - Northern Sector

Pskov has been overtaken by the Germans, while forward elements of the 3rd Panzer Group has taken Vitebsk. More than likely, I predict that 4th Panzer Group will go North towards Leningrad while 3rd will continue toward Rzhev through the Centre corridor.




Summary evaluation tells me if I want to build a solid temporary double line of defense line along the Novgorod line, I will need at least 24 counters. That is the bare minimum.

By my count, excluding the SEC unit that I will use to hug the Panzer Divisions in Pskov, I dispose of only 14 counters. I will need to find 10 more elsewhere if I want to maintain the following objectives:

- Keep the newly arrived Leningrad Rifle Divisions behind to build fortifications
- Maintain coverage along Staraya Russa and the Shelon River
- Use the harsh terrain toward Novgorod to slow the Germans, so to bring more mass toward the Northern Sector in the next turns.

T3 SITREP - North Centre Sector

Axis' plan is plain here: Cross its Panzer Group across Vitebsk and go straight east toward Vyasma, then Rhzev. Thankfully, the panzers have not gone very far, although I am quite afraid of an eventual HQ buildup going for the Centre.



My counterplan is to slam the land bridge shut in front of 2nd Panzer Group by linking with Velikiye Luki on a long, thick front. Troops will come from veering the Smolensk line like a shutting door, plus troops from Rhzev, Vyasma, and Moscow. Plus, I will borrow aa few Divisions from the Southern front to make a third line in the landbridge basin.

Reinforcing Velikiye Luki is also a priority, as it is still possible that the Axis will instead veer back to thrust through there instead, around my right flank.

T3 SITREP - South Centre Sector

2nd Panzer Group are spread evenly within a 2-hex zone to probe my defensive line. This is tactically VERY odd, as it ensures that Psych0 will not be able to exploit a breakthrough easily with its Motorized Divisions evenly spread like that across the front. This is to my advantage, as each turn will cause friction onto each of its 2nd Panzer Group unit.

While the northern part around Kiev is solid, the southern part along Sinyuhka is less so. 25th Motorized Division has already probed 132th Rifle Division into a retreat into Lysyanka. Points for reinforcements have already been identified.

Furthermore, some empty Army HQs leftover from the Minsk pocket are safe and sound, within movement reach. I will use them to reassign Corps away from the overburdened Southwestern sector to STAVKA.

T3 SITREP - Southern Sector

Again, 1st Panzer Group is spread as a thin echelon, however this time more concentrated into a single area due west of Nikolaev. This is, by far, the weakest point in the Southern sector and where they are the likeliest to strike.

White lines are where to send reinforcements. Nikolaev must be reinforced, otherwise my whole left flank will be threatened with a northward pincer that will force me to move my entire front.

T3 SITREP - Other

Casualties on the beginning of Turn 3, with Axis's latest turn:





Oddly, all Axis airbases remain very, very far behind the front. Does it effect the effectiveness of his aircrafts?

The logic being, their operational range is restricted, so this means a longer range to travel to the battlefield and back, no? [&:]

ORIGINAL: Drakken

T3 SITREP - North Centre Sector


My counterplan is to slam the land bridge shut in front of 2nd Panzer Group by linking with Velikiye Luki on a long, thick front. Troops will come from veering the Smolensk line like a shutting door, plus troops from Rhzev, Vyasma, and Moscow. Plus, I will borrow aa few Divisions from the Southern front to make a third line in the landbridge basin.

Reinforcing Velikiye Luki is also a priority, as it is still possible that the Axis will instead veer back to thrust through there instead, around my right flank.

No disrespect here, but what looks good on paper isnt so good at time of execution. If you continue to defend the southern river in the picture and plan a counter attack then I have seen many Soviet players line up on that River only to be "way" out of place to defend Moscow. If the German player has any flank security at all, even with Sec regiments, your plan is going to die a horrible death. Plus your key ingredient is missing on that river line, Calvary. Without those your chances already stand close to zero.

Now if you plan on moving all of those units in front of the PZ's then you are going to be fatigued and easily pushed back and surrounded. You really need to not look at this turn. You need to see into the future and set up a defense based on a turn or two from now.

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

No disrespect here, but what looks good on paper isnt so good at time of execution. If you continue to defend the southern river in the picture and plan a counter attack then I have seen many Soviet players line up on that River only to be "way" out of place to defend Moscow. If the German player has any flank security at all, even with Sec regiments, your plan is going to die a horrible death. Plus your key ingredient is missing on that river line, Calvary. Without those your chances already stand close to zero.

Now if you plan on moving all of those units in front of the PZ's then you are going to be fatigued and easily pushed back and surrounded. You really need to not look at this turn. You need to see into the future and set up a defense based on a turn or two from now.

I think there is a misunderstanding here. I do not intend to counterattack, but to build a wall to deny the landbridge toward Vyasma which, right now, is empty of any Russian troops. If I leave it empty he will simply jaywalk toward Vyasma.

Here is the current situation on the Centre. Are you arguing I should retreat my units away from the Dnepr without making a stand in Mogilev or Orsha? That's what I do not understand. if I leave the Dnepr empty and move my mass of troops away, he will simply waltz through it instead.

I think your planned defense line is a bit too close to the panzers. It'd need to be prepared with forts and rested units to work. You have some really good and strong units along the Dnepr, making a hasty stand too close to the german advance would just get those units surrounded.

Also with the land bridge currently empty, you're risking to be surrounded on the Dnepr. An enveloping move with the panzers is possible even against a strong prepared land bridge defense.

I'm by no means an expert, but just trying to warn against making a too forward defense.

ORIGINAL: Drakken

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

No disrespect here, but what looks good on paper isnt so good at time of execution. If you continue to defend the southern river in the picture and plan a counter attack then I have seen many Soviet players line up on that River only to be "way" out of place to defend Moscow. If the German player has any flank security at all, even with Sec regiments, your plan is going to die a horrible death. Plus your key ingredient is missing on that river line, Calvary. Without those your chances already stand close to zero.

Now if you plan on moving all of those units in front of the PZ's then you are going to be fatigued and easily pushed back and surrounded. You really need to not look at this turn. You need to see into the future and set up a defense based on a turn or two from now.

I think there is a misunderstanding here. I do not intend to counterattack, but to build a wall to deny the landbridge toward Vyasma which, right now, is empty of any Russian troops. If I leave it empty he will simply jaywalk toward Vyasma.

Here is the current situation on the Centre. Are you arguing I should retreat my units away from the Dnepr without making a stand in Mogilev or Orsha? That's what I do not understand. if I leave the Dnepr empty and move my mass of troops away, he will simply waltz through it instead.

I wasn't sure if you were going to let him go by and counter attack his flank or you were going to put up a defense at the land bridge. Now that I know what your intention is which is to defend land bridge I would say that you are already 2 turns to late to even start(if it is still turn 3). Most of your units will use 5-9 mp's to get into position. You will be fatigued and easy pickings being this close to Germans. Plus you will have some units in the open and some in woods. (They will meet the same fate as the other units further to the west) All the units will be without entrenchments. The only PLUS side you have to all of this is that it is turn 3. Turn 3 is when the Germans usually pause to refuel (not always but most of the time). I really don't see enough units at all to make a decent defense right in front of German PZ's. I would give ground and set up behind the upper Dnepr but that is just me. I wouldn't throw away good units unless I absolutely have to.

Tell me, what did you rail out for industry this turn? If you did anything west of Poltava/Bryansk (excluding Leningrad) then you will more than likely end up in trouble with industry if playing a good German. I never touch anything west of those two cities for industry move out unless I'm playing someone that is all in up north.

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Tell me, what did you rail out for industry this turn? If you did anything west of Poltava/Bryansk (excluding Leningrad) then you will more than likely end up in trouble with industry if playing a good German. I never touch anything west of those two cities for industry move out unless I'm playing someone that is all in up north.

I am not there yet! I am just done setting my defensive line on the Northern Sector tonight. [:o]

My plan was basically, after I am done with all my sectors, to follow Walloc' factory evacuation plan, then use the remaining rail cap to displace as many HI as possible behind in the Urals. The Soviet production and evacuation systems are easily one of the features the remains the most alien to me. So many armaments and things to move, most of them either obsolete or not sure if it is worth moving except the obvious (Il-2, T-34, KV-1, Heavy Industry, etc.)

At least, I now understand how to build up support units (Construction battalions, sappers, MG-battalions, etc.) and how to check whether the needed ingredients are enough in the pool. Since we play with Licked HQ support I assign them by hand to Corps and Armies from STAVKA. [:)]

ORIGINAL: Drakken

My plan was basically, after I am done with all my sectors, to follow Walloc' factory evacuation plan, then use the remaining rail cap to displace as many HI as possible behind in the Urals. The Soviet production and evacuation systems are easily one of the features the remains the most alien to me. So many armaments and things to move, most of them either obsolete or not sure if it is worth moving except the obvious (Il-2, T-34, KV-1, Heavy Industry, etc.)

At least, I now understand how to build up support units (Construction battalions, sappers, MG-battalions, etc.) and how to check whether the needed ingredients are enough in the pool. Since we play with Licked HQ support I assign them by hand to Corps and Armies from STAVKA. [:)]

Walloc's guide is a bit outdated, and some of the choices presented are his personal preferences. Mig-3 for example upgrades to IL-2 now, so those Moscow factories should be taken into serious consideration if Moscow is under threat. There are also other changes in factory locations and production dates, transitions etc. The evacuation timing calculations he has made are very informative though.

I'd say that if you're anyway spending hours to ponder strategy and maneuvers on the front, then why not spend an extra hour checking through all the factories under threat in '41, and get familiar with the Production Screen and make your own evacuation plans? Delve deeper!

ORIGINAL: Nix77
Walloc's guide is a bit outdated

It is worth reinforcing that point. The guide is very good, but is now wrong simply because scenario data has changed with later versions. The principles are excellent, but need to be adapted for the latest data.