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Dealing with economics on a war background gives me a lot of fun. So, yes I would be pleased when the game would be more economically developed.
Also I have a lot of fun to play Japan side but I know that economic system gives this side much advantages reliation to reality. I don't like this.

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

Let me get this right. You guys want to take a game, with a learning cliff, and make it MORE complicated?

Yes and No. My goal is not complication. My goal is to have the events in the game and the reality of the world in 1941 govern what Japan is allowed to do and what it is not. And this is not about WitP:AE. It is a conversation about the weaknesses of the WitP:AE economic model as I think about a new Pacific war game.

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: traskott

+1.

Supply/Fuel/Oil/Resources is enough for me. If u include water for pasta, I will play the game, sure, but only ONCE in my lifetime. After that, I will ask for retirement .[:D]

Sounds like another Campaign for North Africa fan. [:D]

No, LCU's and Air units don't consume fuel so any WITP N.Africa simulation has that problem to deal with. Only having industry in North Africa that can be somewhat simulated.

OTOH - with more varieties of stuff to ship around, it might be necessary to allow ships to load more than one variety at the same time (for example food and military supplies). Complicates programming, increases potential for bugs and issues etc.

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

Let me get this right. You guys want to take a game, with a learning cliff, and make it MORE complicated?

Yes and No. My goal is not complication. My goal is to have the events in the game and the reality of the world in 1941 govern what Japan is allowed to do and what it is not. And this is not about WitP:AE. It is a conversation about the weaknesses of the WitP:AE economic model as I think about a new Pacific war game.

Too much detail for too little benefit. It won't appeal to the average wargamer.

The much bigger bang for the buck is gained by

• introducing avgas as a specific commodity needed for airplane sorties. This can simply be abstracted as fuel so that both ships and aircraft consume fuel and supply to rearm
• opening up the play to the type of logistical operational difficulties which plagued both sides. Hence having no cooperation between the IJA and IJN eg no mixing of aircraft flown by other in the raid, no IJA fighters LRCAPing IJN task forces. On the Allied side no rearming of USN ships from British ports which would not stock American ordnance. Rearming of a USN ship only from an American port or an American tender located at a British port
• all the different mineral types you have mentioned must unnecessarily introduce clutter to the production process. It is the use made of industrial product which really matters. Hence rather than all these different mineral types, just add concrete (a byproduct of Heavy Industry rather than supply) as a requirement to build base infrastructure and infrastructure repairs (and building of factories for Japan too)

Alfred

I don't think I would make changes to the Industry / Production model. It is a war game after all and I think it would just create a few extra crucial hexes like Palembang. Ones the Japanese must take and must heavily defend or they die/are really restricted X months later if these are smashed when their stocks run low.

But I think splitting out certain things from supply would have enhanced (but also complicated) the game. Both sides already have to carry or push supply and fuel to most bases in the game so it is not that much of an overhead, but the current system is a bit too flexible for me operationally for both sides. I wouldn't try and model the items down to each shell, bomb and fuel type but I think for certain key war materials you could track them separately.

AvGas (as Alfred suggests) is one I would split out, and heavy ship ordinance (say shells over 8"), definitely heavy air ordinance (Torpedoes and bombs over 250KG - your standard 500lb and 250KGs you can get out of ordinary supply but if you want the big ship killers that is tracked separately) and possibly ship/sub torpedoes. That is just four extra categories. OK the big ship shells all magically become the correct size you need but at least you needed to plan where you need your big ship shells to be.

So instead of as now if you sail your battleships to a port that is large enough the 16" shells are all magically there to support repeated bombardment runs etc. you have to actually preposition stock piles. Also at the moment you can fly in hundreds of planes and a few av support units and operate the bulk of your airforce from an area on the map thousands of miles from where they were a few days before.

You could have the ordinance get converted from supplies but only at certain home ports (Continental USA, Japanese home islands, Aden - i.e. from the UK, Cape Town maybe). Maybe allow AvGas from a slightly larger group. Make these things fairly expensive supply wise (and cargo wise) and then players won't just put some of each everywhere.

Considering we all have to micro manage individual pilots and their training programmes (!) throughout the war I don't think this would have been too much extra detail. We all have to plan the supply needs for every sector for the whole war anyway so adding a bit extra here when that extra is a meaningful strategic decision should be OK?

As for the AI I would be happy for it to ignore this and just use current rules or simply cheat (Av support can convert X supply into Y AvGas etc.).

It could have be done like with aircraft torpedoes except not detailed in numbers. A USN port authority deployed in Goa for example makes possible that cruisers receive 6-8" rounds. BB artillery maybe need the port authority plus an USN Naval Command.

First thing, I would do, is to make whole resource transportation system abstract. You would just add ships to area pools, together with escorts, subs, and raiders. That would at least allow AMCs chance for survival longer, than a week. Then if you have source of Unobtanium in Bora-Bora, you can use it, as long as path to Japan is clear. Without manually sending one single AKL to get it (and forgetting, that you sent it, 10 turns later).

The main problem is not absence of fuel for vehicles, but not including it in overall usage. 4Es should use at least 3 times as much supply, as they currently are. Does transferring plane from one base to another use supply? What about bulldozers? Those monsters drink as much gas, as tank, and I suspect, that Engineering Unit with Vehicles actually uses less supply, that one with comparable number of Engineer Squads.

And food. There was fraking famine in Bengal during war! Eisenhower wasn't in a hurry, to liberate Paris, because then he would have to feed whole city. And in-game, you actually gains enemy supply, when you win city hex from enemy. Just imagine, how much more supply you would need, if every liberated city would suddenly needed to be feed immediately.

And last important thing - wounded/sick/prisoners. You need to get them to safety to recover. Now, you just leave unit at rest, and two weeks later it is ready for another invasion.