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RE: How to create PBEM Equilibrium
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:07 am
by PvtBenjamin
ORIGINAL: James Taylor
The point is we do not see an Axis bias, so there are no suggestions for establishing equilibrium.
The point is people have different skill levels why is that so hard to comprehend.
RE: How to create PBEM Equilibrium
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:25 am
by James Taylor
That's a given! We're not proposing a change in the game as this thread indicates, why is that so hard to comprehend.[8|]
RE: How to create PBEM Equilibrium
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:25 am
by KorutZelva
ORIGINAL: James Taylor
What happened to the bidding system? When a side is perceived as having an advantage by both players have them bid MPPs for playing that side.
The winner spots his opponent with the MPPs he bid for that side.
I'm old enough to remember the days of the 1:4:10 [:D] and I pitched the idea before. But I doubt this is something they would consider so late in the product cycle.
RE: How to create PBEM Equilibrium
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:42 am
by PvtBenjamin
ORIGINAL: James Taylor
That's a given! We're not proposing a change in the game as this thread indicates, why is that so hard to comprehend.[8|]
I don't know who "we" is. It looks like most people think its a good idea to have different PBEM levels for Axis based on skill like the AI has.
RE: How to create PBEM Equilibrium
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:48 am
by Taxman66
ORIGINAL: James Taylor
Are you referring to the game with Rannug?
If so and I read it correctly, did you not initiate any action with the Commonwealth in NA after the Italians first joined in May of 40?
Are you referring to the game with Rannug? If so and I read it correctly, did you not initiate any action with the Commonwealth in NA after the Italians first joined in May of 40?
No. For 2 reasons:
1. I was under the belief that Sea Lion was coming. I admit that I was fooled by the non to minimal usage of subs and the very high early Tech investment Germany made.
2. Italy was
very prepared for aggressive UK action in North Africa. There were 3 or 4 Italian Armies dug in on the defensive. So instead I took opportunities to wreck the Italian Fleet.*
* Perhaps I should've kept more ships in the Med to interdict German Transports. I was expecting a majority of the Luftwaffe, not all the extra German land units that were sent (along with 2 extra fighters and 2 extra Tac bombers)
RE: How to create PBEM Equilibrium
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:04 pm
by Taxman66
There is a method with activating scripts that would reduce German MPP, but it isn't intuitive (i.e. it doesn't specifically state how much MPP Germany would loose with which Script), it's hard coded and not adjustable. Adding MPP to a power would require creating a mod and would require players have the exact same mod. Lastly a significant part of the problem is not necessarily resolved by just giving extra MPP. Russian units are so weak/incapable of harming Germans (either on defense or offense) until it becomes too late.
Germany just has to:
1. Grab Spain (either Diplo or Algeria/Casablanca if necessary); 2. Take out Cairo; 3. Barbarossa (which is perfectly safe to delay) and then eat the elephant and the big 3 cities one at a time by blasting anything in the way with air power. Take it slow and steady, don't overextend and don't expose vulnerable units; 4. Next blast whatever is occupying London and paradrop into the empty hex for victory.
If worst comes to worst German can use said airforce to assist late Sealion by clearing the area of allied ships. The allied airforce at tech parity won't match up with experienced Luftwaffe or 3 pip HQs supporting them.
RE: How to create PBEM Equilibrium
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:25 pm
by PvtBenjamin
Could they just have different PBEM games that are the same as AI with Axis (intermediate, Veteran, Expert)? Maybe some experience added to Allies in Expert?
RE: How to create PBEM Equilibrium
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:20 pm
by Taxman66
The spotting advantage would probably be too good.
RE: How to create PBEM Equilibrium
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:23 pm
by Taxman66
Also, as I said before, I would loose interest in the game pretty fast if there was only 1 viable Strategy and even faster if there was only possible counter to it.
So, in my view, there is a significant danger that in balancing for this Axis strategy all other strategies become untenable.
RE: How to create PBEM Equilibrium
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:02 pm
by room
One thing I find annoying is that essentially Alger/Tunis/Vichy/Portugal/Syria are free one turn countries for GER. There is litterally no cost and only
benefits after US are at war... We wonder why GER did not take them IRL then [:D] So of course in game, GER does it...
To me this goes beyond balancing, it just makes no sense and it does not feel WW2 at all.
Likewise it is not Wise to send the Finland expedition for France and UK... Well it Was not wise of GER to start the war given how it ended so no WW2 tin game then?
Historical choices should be the most potent in most cases with ahistorical options being viable in certain set only.
RE: How to create PBEM Equilibrium
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:31 pm
by PvtBenjamin
Also, as I said before, I would loose interest in the game pretty fast if there was only 1 viable Strategy and even faster if there was only possible counter to it.
So, in my view, there is a significant danger that in balancing for this Axis strategy all other strategies become untenable.
so you just play the base version which is the same as it is now. Why would you care if others could play adjusted games?
RE: How to create PBEM Equilibrium
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:32 pm
by PvtBenjamin
RE: How to create PBEM Equilibrium
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:45 pm
by Taxman66
I'm talking about PBEM.
In short if the only thing is done is to balance against this one strategy, then this becomes the only strategy that is viable.
If that happens replay-ability goes down and the game becomes less interesting.
RE: How to create PBEM Equilibrium
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:00 pm
by PvtBenjamin
I'm confused.
I'm also talking about PBEM. Where they add two scenarios (veteran/expert like now in AI/ harder for Axis) keeping the current intermediate.
So you are arguing the current PBEM isn't balanced?
Maybe I'm wrong but there doesn't seem to be a large interest in the PBEM game I'm justing suggesting ideas to increase interest. If there is a large interest I stand corrected, I mean the "tourney" only has a hndful of players.
RE: How to create PBEM Equilibrium
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:23 pm
by PvtBenjamin
[quote]ORIGINAL: room
One thing I find annoying is that essentially Alger/Tunis/Vichy/Portugal/Syria are free one turn countries for GER. There is litterally no cost and only
benefits after US are at war... We wonder why GER did not take them IRL then [:D] So of course in game, GER does it...
To me this goes beyond balancing, it just makes no sense and it does not feel WW2 at all.
Agreed. DE 603 is an embarrassment.
RE: How to create PBEM Equilibrium
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:09 pm
by Guderian1940
I think one of the issues is that there is little consequence for the Axis, especially and Allies for choosing alternate strategies. Attacking early, attacking a bunch of weak countries such as Vichy. Choosing to hit Egypt early with the Italians ETC. All these decisions should not be done by a player in a void. More scripts are needed to counter the many strategies the Axis or Allies can use.
Unfortunately the game is designed for those to follow historical decisions. Once of the grid there is little consequence.
There are many nuances to the game and once you figure them out it becomes unbalanced because there is little effect, I.E US entering the war early or stronger because of German actions. If England is invades there must be a stronger US response if not a declaration of war. Just one of a hundred example. The USSR maybe would mobilize faster. There is a lot ow work to do for this so I am not hopeful at this stage of the game development.
Do we want to follow the exact WWII timeline of course not but all decision by whoever should have an effect on the war.
Pick a strategy but beware of certain consequences. My 2 cents.
RE: How to create PBEM Equilibrium
Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:40 am
by PvtBenjamin
ORIGINAL: Guderian1940
I think one of the issues is that there is little consequence for the Axis, especially and Allies for choosing alternate strategies. Attacking early, attacking a bunch of weak countries such as Vichy. Choosing to hit Egypt early with the Italians ETC. All these decisions should not be done by a player in a void. More scripts are needed to counter the many strategies the Axis or Allies can use.
Unfortunately the game is designed for those to follow historical decisions. Once of the grid there is little consequence.
There are many nuances to the game and once you figure them out it becomes unbalanced because there is little effect, I.E US entering the war early or stronger because of German actions. If England is invades there must be a stronger US response if not a declaration of war. Just one of a hundred example. The USSR maybe would mobilize faster. There is a lot ow work to do for this so I am not hopeful at this stage of the game development.
Do we want to follow the exact WWII timeline of course not but all decision by whoever should have an effect on the war.
Pick a strategy but beware of certain consequences. My 2 cents.
Correct. Currently many of these strategies currently have enhancements (DE 603) not significant consequences
RE: How to create PBEM Equilibrium
Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:25 pm
by sPzAbt653
DE 603 will cost the Germans territory in Africa given to Spain [ok, it still belongs to the Axis so no big deal], plus 800 MPP,s and it will increase the USA's mobilization. So DE 603 does have consequences.
That said, it does feel a little light to me, so for the 653N mod there is an additional qualifier that the Axis must be threatening London [Sealion] and will pay 25 MPP's per turn for the duration instead of 800 once. Spain also gets Gibraltar, and I had been thinking that Spain may have been like the other minor Allies in that once things go bad for Germany, Spain would switch sides and therefore Gibraltar would also switch sides. Haven't put it in yet, though.
RE: How to create PBEM Equilibrium
Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:18 pm
by PvtBenjamin
ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
DE 603 will cost the Germans territory in Africa given to Spain [ok, it still belongs to the Axis so no big deal], plus 800 MPP,s and it will increase the USA's mobilization. So DE 603 does have consequences.
That said, it does feel a little light to me, so for the 653N mod there is an additional qualifier that the Axis must be threatening London [Sealion] and will pay 25 MPP's per turn for the duration instead of 800 once. Spain also gets Gibraltar, and I had been thinking that Spain may have been like the other minor Allies in that once things go bad for Germany, Spain would switch sides and therefore Gibraltar would also switch sides. Haven't put it in yet, though.
DE 603 a little light? Just a little.
All the Axis has to do is attack after fall '41 and the 8-15% for the US is close to or totally irrelevant.
1)Axis gets the geography (& mines & ports), additional slots and eventually Gibraltar(which has a large impact on Allies in NA).
2) 1300 value in Spanish troops and ships immediately
3) 250 MPP per turn
4) Taking Portugal a piece of cake after Spain.
All this for 800MPP (200x4) and taking out a 3 str non entrenched corp (with 30% Spain).
Also in my last game that the person tried DE 603 I had two troops within 5 hexes of Casablanca and it still fired.
RE: How to create PBEM Equilibrium
Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:39 pm
by room
You forgot the income form Algers and Tunis [:'(]
But mainly it's the way to DE 603 that is too easy and completly nonsensical in any historical or logical perspective.
One of the thing is that Axis dow have an impact on neighbours belligeence: it s a good thing but those neighbours don't actually mobilise.
For example there is no conséquences to an early LUX dow. Belgium is a bit unhappy? So be it! No conséquence. In addition Belgium should start mobilize and get one more corps when axis dow Belgium. Similarly if Axis do Belgium and Netherland one after the other, they should also get one more corps.
It's even worst for the Vichy French countries... All Vichy french countries should go allies immediatly if one of them is DOW. Plus it should shock the shit out of all unaligned countries that Axis break their peace with Vichy France.
