Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Good advice above. From the JFB perspective: it's not necessarily a 'dream' setup. Fragmenting KB by running small 'bitsa' IJN CV groups around is asking to-sooner or later-get nailed by an concentrated Allied response. Unless he will achieve auto-victory on January 1, 1943 by sinking so many of your ships (unlikely since he hasn't taken advantage of important land base points), you'll get by.

Avoid the temptation to throw singleton CVs at him while you recouperate. Identify a theater where he is raiding with small CV forces injudiciously, concentrate your LBA and CV strength there and start nibbling around the edges. Upgrade your airframes. TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN your pilots. Bid your time. You'll get through it.

Thanks for the input from a JFB perspective. Your idea about a concentrated Allied response is what I was trying to accomplish and it got me in trouble initially. I had 3 CV's that were undetected and just about to hit one of his small groups when CV Saratoga reacted and revealed her presence. She got hammered, and didnt get any hits on his carrier group. Then Enterprise and Yorktown moved past his group during a night move and didnt find them during the search phase - but he found them, and hammered them as well.

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Many Allied players have faced that dilemma and emerged a far better player for soldiering through.

It will be tough for a few turns, as it always is following a debacle. But soon enough, your equilibrium returns, you find fun things to work on and look forward to, and you figure out how to advance the Allied cause without carrier parity.

Work your subs - both patrolling and mining - and look forward to that distant, rarified day they do something devilish to an enemy capital ship.

More than anything, work on your logistics - fuel and supply to key bases that you're building to maximum size. Make sure all that work will be in the theater where you plan later major, sustained actions.

Get your assets lined up - some day, you will advance in major ways, taking new bases, building them, etc. You'll need supply and fuel and engineers and base forces.

And there's pilot training.

In other words, there are many things the Allied player can do to profitably use the down time until you're ready to attack. Find out how to play with the assets you have. You'll be glad you did, because you'll learn alot. And you'll emerge from this a far better player.

Good luck!

Dan, thanks for the insights and the guidance. I appreciate your advice.

Let this song be the OST of your counterattack

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD_l2OVVQsc

ORIGINAL: Anachro

Thanks for this poster, you may be spot on with this prediction. He took Ambon a couple turns ago, and has been bombing the daylights out of Koepang since.

Am a newish player (not a complete noob) but here goes.


CV air TF: NEVER set react to enemy task forces as anything else than ZERO !!!!!!!
React to enemy is for SURFACE GROUPS ONLY !!!


Do not bomb from air ground troops (except in China as Japanese): total waste of materiel and pilots UNTIL you get overwhelming air force. Sweep then shut down enemy airbases.
Exception: When you want to slow down enemy LCU, when bombed they MIGHT switch from move to combat mode.

"The whole game has seen him using his CV’s in small groups spread all over the southern Pacific and Indian Oceans, and the Coral Sea. "

Learn the following Polish ([:D])proverb: 'nicht kleckern sondern klotzen'.

Loose translation: "Don't do weak punches, f**k them up gud !".

This was a tremendous opportunity for your CV pilots to get some free shots. I realize enemy CVL and CVE are a match and then some for beginning USA CV force but.....


Most important thing: as an Allied player, YOU CANNOT LOSE. PERIOD.

There is auto victory malarkey, but really, you get so much s**t in 1944, that you can brute force your s**t whenever and wherever you want. Don't forget to air CAP your stuff, though.

"Would you accept the challenge of playing without carriers for a year or more?"

Sure. CL + DD fast strike forces. Try to bleed his pilot pools. Again, you CAN'T lose as an Allied player, simply unpossible IMHO [:D]

Burma >> China, your schwerpunkt.
Bleed him in DEI.

If you up to it, invade NOT-100 island near Japan, rapidly develop it into airbase/fortress, and start strat bombing Japan for funsies.

Use subs to mine enemy ports. Japan does not have a lot of minesweepers, and can make a mistake of converting them to escorts huehuehue...

Also, subs. Subs are a nuissance in '42, a killer in '43, a catastrophe in '44.

Channel your inner Nemo121.

ORIGINAL: dave sindel

I had 3 CV's that were undetected and just about to hit one of his small groups when CV Saratoga reacted and revealed her presence. She got hammered, and didnt get any hits on his carrier group. Then Enterprise and Yorktown moved past his group during a night move and didnt find them during the search phase - but he found them, and hammered them as well.

A lot of AFBs like to pile their CVs into one or two TFs early on. I'm one of them. Even if you get coordination penalties, it's better than piecemeal reactions.

Cheers,
CB

3 CV in 1 TF >> 4 separate CV in separate TF

"Most important thing: as an Allied player, YOU CANNOT LOSE. PERIOD."


I've been getting closer to finally buying this monster game, studying the manual, and tutorials. But after seeing this, it kinda took the wind out of my sails. Why play a game when you know who will win.
So no matter what, Japan can't win?

ORIGINAL: rtoolooze

So no matter what, Japan can't win?

Don't you believe it.[:-]

ORIGINAL: rtoolooze
I've been getting closer to finally buying this monster game, studying the manual, and tutorials. But after seeing this, it kinda took the wind out of my sails. Why play a game when you know who will win.
So no matter what, Japan can't win?

The game is meant to be a historical simulation and recreation of the various conditions and factors that made the Pacific War the Pacific War. It does this quite successfully and is probably the closest we will ever come to recreating fully the War in the Pacific and seeing how well we ourselves could do in that war if we were its generals.

With that said, the Japanese and Allied situation historically were what they were and as a player you must accept that. Would you rewrite history and ignore these factors simply so you can have a fantastical scenario where Japan fights with the Allies on a level of parity? Given the relative levels of national development and economic strength, such a situation never existed nor could ever exist.

Rather, it is up to you as a player to see how well you measure up. It is certainly possible for Japan do do immense things in a game and demoralize an Allied opponent well enough to "win" a game. By luck, good tactics or strategy, you might be able to keep Japan in a position of superiority for some time, but you must always contend with the fact that the Allies get more goodies and an abundance of supply. I'm sure historically Japanese leaders wished for some cheat code to help defeat the Allied menace, but that wasn't the case then and won't be the case now. It is up to you to do better or worse than them.

Of course, you could always download some ahistorical mod to make Japan even stronger if should so wish. I, myself, am playing such a mod right now. [:D]

ORIGINAL: rtoolooze

"Most important thing: as an Allied player, YOU CANNOT LOSE. PERIOD."


I've been getting closer to finally buying this monster game, studying the manual, and tutorials. But after seeing this, it kinda took the wind out of my sails. Why play a game when you know who will win.
So no matter what, Japan can't win?

The "end of game screen" is actually quite anticlimactic. It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game. The journey is the reward - or to put it in a more martial way, the hunt is sweeter than the kill.

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

ORIGINAL: rtoolooze

"Most important thing: as an Allied player, YOU CANNOT LOSE. PERIOD."


I've been getting closer to finally buying this monster game, studying the manual, and tutorials. But after seeing this, it kinda took the wind out of my sails. Why play a game when you know who will win.
So no matter what, Japan can't win?

The "end of game screen" is actually quite anticlimactic. It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game. The journey is the reward - or to put it in a more martial way, the hunt is sweeter than the kill.

Japanese players have won, in a sense. Auto victory in jan 43....GP

ORIGINAL: rtoolooze

"Most important thing: as an Allied player, YOU CANNOT LOSE. PERIOD."


I've been getting closer to finally buying this monster game, studying the manual, and tutorials. But after seeing this, it kinda took the wind out of my sails. Why play a game when you know who will win.
So no matter what, Japan can't win?

I hate it when the uninformed make statements like the one you reacted to. It is categorically false.

I'm a decent player. Been playing AE and WITP for 13 years. I've completed three PBEM games as the Allies and I lost two of them. In my fourth now and the outcome is in doubt. IF you play the game design and understand the victory conditions, Japan can win. In some sense it's easier for Japan to win as all they have to do is hang on and not lose. The Allies MUST, under the design, get an auto-victory to win the game.

Japan has numerous advantages built into the design they did not have in RL. Over the decade of AE's existence Japan players have come to understand how to optimize those advantages. Today, unlike 2009, you will likely encounter a Japan PBEM opponent who is very, very tough.

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: rtoolooze

"Most important thing: as an Allied player, YOU CANNOT LOSE. PERIOD."


I've been getting closer to finally buying this monster game, studying the manual, and tutorials. But after seeing this, it kinda took the wind out of my sails. Why play a game when you know who will win.
So no matter what, Japan can't win?

I hate it when the uninformed make statements like the one you reacted to. It is categorically false.

I'm a decent player. Been playing AE and WITP for 13 years. I've completed three PBEM games as the Allies and I lost two of them. In my fourth now and the outcome is in doubt. IF you play the game design and understand the victory conditions, Japan can win. In some sense it's easier for Japan to win as all they have to do is hang on and not lose. The Allies MUST, under the design, get an auto-victory to win the game.

Japan has numerous advantages built into the design they did not have in RL. Over the decade of AE's existence Japan players have come to understand how to optimize those advantages. Today, unlike 2009, you will likely encounter a Japan PBEM opponent who is very, very tough.

I would say that the outcome of this game is still very much in doubt, but the safe money bet would be on the Japanese. It's mid June of 1942 and my opponent already has a 2.5-1 spread on points. Can he get to 4:1 in 1943 ? Considering that his carriers can range far and wide with little to stop them, I would say that he has a decent chance. And I will need to have a pretty good year in 1943 to keep him from a 3-1 margin in 1944. So I know that it could very well end up being a losing effort for the Allies. My opponent graciously offered me the chance to restart the game, and I declined. I want to see if I am up to the challenge.

Bullwinkle is right. Apparently, many players don't pay attention to Victory Points and have no inkling of how this game is won or lost by that standard. Players think the Allies win if they invade Okinawa in April 1945 and drop A-bombs in August.

Victory Points are there for a reason. The game is much, much richer if players (especially the Japanese player!) take note and play to achieve victory according the terms set by the creators of the game.

ORIGINAL: dave sindel

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: rtoolooze

"Most important thing: as an Allied player, YOU CANNOT LOSE. PERIOD."


I've been getting closer to finally buying this monster game, studying the manual, and tutorials. But after seeing this, it kinda took the wind out of my sails. Why play a game when you know who will win.
So no matter what, Japan can't win?

I hate it when the uninformed make statements like the one you reacted to. It is categorically false.

I'm a decent player. Been playing AE and WITP for 13 years. I've completed three PBEM games as the Allies and I lost two of them. In my fourth now and the outcome is in doubt. IF you play the game design and understand the victory conditions, Japan can win. In some sense it's easier for Japan to win as all they have to do is hang on and not lose. The Allies MUST, under the design, get an auto-victory to win the game.

Japan has numerous advantages built into the design they did not have in RL. Over the decade of AE's existence Japan players have come to understand how to optimize those advantages. Today, unlike 2009, you will likely encounter a Japan PBEM opponent who is very, very tough.

I would say that the outcome of this game is still very much in doubt, but the safe money bet would be on the Japanese. It's mid June of 1942 and my opponent already has a 2.5-1 spread on points. Can he get to 4:1 in 1943 ? Considering that his carriers can range far and wide with little to stop them, I would say that he has a decent chance. And I will need to have a pretty good year in 1943 to keep him from a 3-1 margin in 1944. So I know that it could very well end up being a losing effort for the Allies. My opponent graciously offered me the chance to restart the game, and I declined. I want to see if I am up to the challenge.

I think I read your post wrong, sorry.

Just to set things correct, Japan will need 4-1 VPs to win in 1943, 3-1 in 1944, and only 2-1 in 1945.

Its the same for the Allies.

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Just to set things correct, Japan will need 4-1 VPs to win in 1943, 3-1 in 1944, and only 2-1 in 1945.

Its the same for the Allies.

That is very true, but I do think I misread his post.

Thanks everyone for the replies. Glad I asked that question, as the replies make a lot more sense. I understand that it is a simulation of the Pacific War, and I'm glad it is. The depth is incredible.
And I'm understanding Victory Points a lot more now. Should make for some epic games. I shall continue my studies cause the wind is back in the sails!!

(As a Kid I had a Board Game called Flattop from Avalon Hill. I loved reading the manual and tried playing it by myself cause none of my friends would play it with me. Being a student of The war in the Pacific since I could read I think this is right up my alley)