Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:32 am**

ORIGINAL: exsonic01

All in all, I think Soviet army during cold war were capable of providing battlefield resupply / maintenance / limited repair service during middle of the battle. According to those descriptions, it looks very similar to "Service Center" type emergency field resupply of US Armor platoon / company. At least US intelligence evaluated the ability Soviet army field resupply in combat in good way.

But I don't have 1st hand FMs written in Russians for Red army, and I can't even read Russian. So I was looking for such materials. I'm also Curious how UK and FRG and other NATO nations did. I think it would be similar.

I`ve just quoted Soviet Army regulations where said next:
"Израсходованные запасы ракет, боеприпасов, горючего, продовольствия и других материальных средств должны пополняться до установленных норм.
Подвоз ракет, боеприпасов, горючего, продовольствия и других материальных средств в подразделения осуществляется по устным заявкам командиров рот и отдельных взводов и приказу (приказанию) командира (начальника штаба) батальона.
Пополнение танков, боевых машин пехоты (бронетранспортеров) боеприпасами и заправка их горючим в ходе боя производятся непосредственно в боевых порядках, а при совершении марша—в районах привалов, дневного (ночного) отдыха и по прибытии в назначенный район. При невозможности подвоза боеприпасов и горючего к танкам, боевым машинам пехоты (бронетранспортерам) непосредственно в боевые порядки транспортные средства с боеприпасами и горючим подходят как можно ближе к ним. Танки, боевые машины пехоты (бронетранспортеры) поочередно скрытно подходят к местам расположения транспортных средств для пополнения боеприпасами и заправки горючим."
(Google translate... sorry but it will take too long for me to translate this properly):
The spent reserves of missiles, ammunition, fuel, food and other materiel must be replenished to the established norms.
The delivery of missiles, ammunition, fuel, food and other materiel to the subunits is carried out at the oral requests of company commanders and individual platoons and the order (order) of the battalion commander (chief of staff).
Replenishment of tanks, infantry fighting vehicles (armored personnel carriers) with ammunition and refueling them during combat is carried out directly in combat formations, and when making a march, in areas of halts, daytime (night) rest, and upon arrival in the designated area. When it is impossible to bring ammunition and fuel to tanks, infantry fighting vehicles (armored personnel carriers) directly to combat formations, vehicles with ammunition and fuel come as close as possible to them. Tanks, infantry fighting vehicles (armored personnel carriers) alternately secretly approach the locations of vehicles for replenishing ammunition and fueling.

In case of AB this mean, that units ranned out of ammo mosly should move off-map for resuply, also "combat" in this terms have extremely flexible meaning and may be anything between two squads skirmish for couple of seconds and strategic operation with several divisions involved and lasts for veeks and months. Actually for Soviet Army incombat resuply under enemy fire is very rare case, and usually situation (or order) require unstoppable pushing forward and unit commanders may just have not time to resuply their unit.

Posted: **Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:44 am**

One of the issues in AB is the fact that every unit has a fixed amount of ammunition which cannot be changed in the scenario setup unless you mod the database to fit the scenario. But, in positional defence, a defending unit would have more ammunition stockpiled so it could hold out longer as it possible that a unit in defence may not have freedom of movement to get a ressuply. But in the attack, their is more freedom of movement, the attacking units ie infantry mainly may be carrying far more than the standard issue, but also a reserve of ammunition is probably held back on the units vehicles so it then becomes a case of runners going back to the vehicles for a resupply or the vehicles come forward a bit to meet them. And to keep them topped up whether defensive or offensive, supply vehicles from the echelons would come forward as far as is safe and from that point, ammunition issued out in the safest means possible. Also a rolling replen would also be carried out on a night which could be done very quickly for both armoured and infantry units which we practised a lot in the 80's when I was in the BAOR. Mortar lines etc in defence would have loads of predumped ammo and we would have it stored in the vehicle, in the mortar pits in the ammunition bays and we would even have it dug in close by we had that much ammunition, far in excess of the basic loadout

So in reality, unless you can alter the "loadouts" during the scenario creation to suit the postures of the two sides in AB, you cannot get a realistic scenario as both sides will be on a level playing field regarding ammunition.

Posted: **Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:35 pm**

ORIGINAL: Sorrow_Knight

ORIGINAL: exsonic01

All in all, I think Soviet army during cold war were capable of providing battlefield resupply / maintenance / limited repair service during middle of the battle. According to those descriptions, it looks very similar to "Service Center" type emergency field resupply of US Armor platoon / company. At least US intelligence evaluated the ability Soviet army field resupply in combat in good way.

But I don't have 1st hand FMs written in Russians for Red army, and I can't even read Russian. So I was looking for such materials. I'm also Curious how UK and FRG and other NATO nations did. I think it would be similar.

I`ve just quoted Soviet Army regulations where said next:
"Израсходованные запасы ракет, боеприпасов, горючего, продовольствия и других материальных средств должны пополняться до установленных норм.
Подвоз ракет, боеприпасов, горючего, продовольствия и других материальных средств в подразделения осуществляется по устным заявкам командиров рот и отдельных взводов и приказу (приказанию) командира (начальника штаба) батальона.
Пополнение танков, боевых машин пехоты (бронетранспортеров) боеприпасами и заправка их горючим в ходе боя производятся непосредственно в боевых порядках, а при совершении марша—в районах привалов, дневного (ночного) отдыха и по прибытии в назначенный район. При невозможности подвоза боеприпасов и горючего к танкам, боевым машинам пехоты (бронетранспортерам) непосредственно в боевые порядки транспортные средства с боеприпасами и горючим подходят как можно ближе к ним. Танки, боевые машины пехоты (бронетранспортеры) поочередно скрытно подходят к местам расположения транспортных средств для пополнения боеприпасами и заправки горючим."
(Google translate... sorry but it will take too long for me to translate this properly):
The spent reserves of missiles, ammunition, fuel, food and other materiel must be replenished to the established norms.
The delivery of missiles, ammunition, fuel, food and other materiel to the subunits is carried out at the oral requests of company commanders and individual platoons and the order (order) of the battalion commander (chief of staff).
Replenishment of tanks, infantry fighting vehicles (armored personnel carriers) with ammunition and refueling them during combat is carried out directly in combat formations, and when making a march, in areas of halts, daytime (night) rest, and upon arrival in the designated area. When it is impossible to bring ammunition and fuel to tanks, infantry fighting vehicles (armored personnel carriers) directly to combat formations, vehicles with ammunition and fuel come as close as possible to them. Tanks, infantry fighting vehicles (armored personnel carriers) alternately secretly approach the locations of vehicles for replenishing ammunition and fueling.

In case of AB this mean, that units ranned out of ammo mosly should move off-map for resuply, also "combat" in this terms have extremely flexible meaning and may be anything between two squads skirmish for couple of seconds and strategic operation with several divisions involved and lasts for veeks and months. Actually for Soviet Army incombat resuply under enemy fire is very rare case, and usually situation (or order) require unstoppable pushing forward and unit commanders may just have not time to resuply their unit.

Thanks for the info. But I think such "service station" type resupply would be still doable for both faction, NATO and PACT, preferably from "medium" or "big" scenario. FM 100-2-2 also offer a table for "Location of Tactical Logistics Element" for typical Soviet army, including battalion and company in page 13-5. There, they can have logistics station maximum 4~5km back from front (battalion), and company can have such station 100~200m behind (only for defense ops).

So... make resupply truck expensive, and only available at huge games, like greater than 10km x 10km size or greater than 15k point. Or, make a limit to introduce such "battlefield service station" available only from battalion size forces. That would be historically accurate for both sides for combat resupply option, and possible using this game system.

FMs clearly mentioned about battlefield resupply and limited repair during combat in FM, and people who served in army (US and FRG) support such action is doable. So I think resupply is an option would help the game to follow more realistic, and make game more enjoyable.

Posted: **Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:40 pm**

i honestly dont think resupply is beyond the scope of this game... although resupply for tanks can occur in 30 minutes to an hour via a dedicated supply... this is doable within the confines of large battles in AB which can last as long as 4 hours or more... also infantry and artillery especially foot artillery should be readily resuppliable via trucks apcs IFVs etc....

Posted: **Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:37 pm**

ORIGINAL: exsonic01

There, they can have logistics station maximum 4~5km back from front (battalion), and company can have such station 100~200m behind (only for defense ops)

Exactly what I`ve said about- during defensive operations there could be service stations and even fully equipped machine-shops where tank could be unmounted till last nail, repaired and mounted back, but in attack there is no time to wait for evac transports/ammo trucks and so on, damaged vehicles will be just stopped and will wait for higher level unit evac\repair transport while company/batallion will go forward without it... Soviet doctrine based on fastest possible moving from defence to full-scale attack actions and defemsive actions there seems possible only if there is no any options to continue pushing worward and crush enemy lines.

Posted: **Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:49 pm**

ORIGINAL: Sorrow_Knight
Exactly what I`ve said about- during defensive operations there could be service stations and even fully equipped machine-shops where tank could be unmounted till last nail, repaired and mounted back, but in attack there is no time to wait for evac transports/ammo trucks and so on, damaged vehicles will be just stopped and will wait for higher level unit evac\repair transport while company/batallion will go forward without it... Soviet doctrine based on fastest possible moving from defence to full-scale attack actions and defemsive actions there seems possible only if there is no any options to continue pushing worward and crush enemy lines.

Yeah, and that is why I think it is still possible for both factions, "with the limitation of game size". This game can depict platoon ~ brigade level battle. I think it would be reasonable + historically accurate to introduce such "service station" type resupply function from battalion size games.

Posted: **Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:19 pm**

ORIGINAL: exsonic01
ORIGINAL: Sorrow_Knight

Yeah, and that is why I think it is still possible for both factions, "with the limitation of game size". This game can depict platoon ~ brigade level battle. I think it would be reasonable + historically accurate to introduce such "service station" type resupply function from battalion size games.

Yah, I wouldn't be surprised to see it. I don't think the coding would be much more difficult that creating the sprites, and setting up a timer system for resupply (similar to reloading) and then a logistics radius which acts similar to command radius. Probably not gonna happen right away, as there are other priorities, but I would imagine that it can and will be implemented at some point. The battle sizes are large enough that AB can enter this unexplored territory of wargaming. Other games haven't taken squad level combat to the division/brigade level, so it will be original!

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