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The changes go into the direction of tempering down the subs. My experience from SC EAW, is that with the amount of destroyers available to the Allies, it's very hard to conduct a meaningful sub campaign against the UK shipping. Usually after one attack they should run away to the base, because the destroyers will hunt them down. The good thing is, that it's still hard to sink the subs, but if they'll dive less often and start suffering higher loses, the attacks against the convoys will become too costly. I know that there are historical arguments pro and con, but I'm not referring to them. I look at it from the game balance POW. The Axis player should see the war against the shipping as beneficial and cost effective, while the Allied player should feel reasonably threatened by the subs, at least until 1943-44. Right now with the French Navy first and with the Canadians, the subs are the prey, not the other way around.

Unfortunately what you describe seems pretty accurate.

The video below at 20:36 gives a pretty compelling look at how ineffective German subs were in WWII. The whole video is worth watching imho [:)]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WtFyl98SlM

Sorry, but this video is not a great source to validate the effectinvess of German subs.
First of all, the late german subs (class XXI) would have changed the whole situation if they would have been introduced some years earlier. Which would have been possible.
Next thing: the Allies were reading the german secret code / communication. And with this they were able to lead the convoys around knonw Sub positions, while on the other hand they were able to hunt the subs down.
Last part: Radar. German subs were unaware about the Allied radar abilities.

Put all pieces together, throw them into a "what if" game like Strategic Command, and tell me again why german subs should be ineffective in Strategic Command, where the players, and not the historical timeline or counterpars, decide about the entire war.

Well I completely ignore the whole Battle of the Atlantic anyway [:)]. For both sides. So it does not matter to me.

Everything you describe above to me represents the different levels of capabilities for ASW and subs themselves. If you have a lv 4 sub against a lv 1 asw then you should be fine as the sub. If this was reversed then the sub is in big trouble. So you can get the Class XXI earlier if you research Advanced Subs heavily. The Allies can get a lot of their ASW assists using the same method.

If I do send out my subs, I do in in mass and keep them fairly close. So If a DD shows up, I swarm it and sink it. Even better if it is a CV. Sending subs out by ones and twos is typically not a good idea I have found. This method works for me at least so far.

ORIGINAL: Cheesehead

I think the WWII grand strategy game that does the best job simulating naval combat, capturing the chance for surprise as well the hit and miss nature of trying to find an enemy fleet in a large ocean is the board game 'World in Flames.' This is a hex-based game but the oceans are divided up into sea zones. When opposing fleets are in the same sea zone, there is a chance for combat. The chances to find an enemy fleet depend on several factors including the presence of air, the speed of the ships, how far the ships traveled before entering the zone and random luck. This random luck element is what can sometimes lead to great surprise advantages such as were found at the Battle of Midway. I would imagine this shouldn't be too difficult to capture in a computer game.

+1000 not necessarily using sea zones.

I love the game but the naval rules as they stand now are just bad IMHO. Can Hubert or Bill please comment on whether any improvements are planned? The whole whack a mole gameplay now makes no sense and feels very unrealistic. Three or four subs/ships come out of nowhere, sink a ship, and then disappear back into the void with no response from any nearby friendly ships or maritime bombers in range?! We're talking two week turns here so the rest of the navy and airforce sitting idle makes no sense. Also, one of my British ships retreated toward Germany while under attack instead of toward the rest of the Royal Navy right next to it?! It's probably wishful thinking but an AI controlled reaction during the enemy turn would add some realism.

ORIGINAL: elmo3

Also, one of my British ships retreated toward Germany while under attack instead of toward the rest of the Royal Navy right next to it?! It's probably wishful thinking but an AI controlled reaction during the enemy turn would add some realism.

you even realise that the Axis ship have a impact what direction that British ship flee? It depends from what side that Sub attacks.

your other point is allso rubbish, the 2 week idle is because it is a round based game not a RTS.
What do you want, a minute, a hour, a day or a week turn?

I agree. I'm tired of playing whack-a-mole with subs!

ORIGINAL: Schokolokos

ORIGINAL: elmo3

Also, one of my British ships retreated toward Germany while under attack instead of toward the rest of the Royal Navy right next to it?! It's probably wishful thinking but an AI controlled reaction during the enemy turn would add some realism.

you even realise that the Axis ship have a impact what direction that British ship flee? It depends from what side that Sub attacks.

your other point is allso rubbish, the 2 week idle is because it is a round based game not a RTS.
What do you want, a minute, a hour, a day or a week turn?

So you think the Axis ship/sub attacked in the same direction for two weeks straight and my ship had no choice but to run toward Germany? I don't care what direction the enemy attacked from when the entire Royal Navy is only one or two hexes to the west that ship would not retreat toward Germany. It could have gone north or south or circled to the west but certainly not east.

I understand the turns are two weeks and I'm not asking for shorter turns. Never said I did so please stop the hyperbole. However just as friendly fighters can intercept enemy fighters/bombers during the enemy turn, I think friendly ships/maritime bombers/CV based aircraft should be able to intercept spotted enemy ships if they come within range and attack a friendly ship.

Edit - The code is already there for fighters to intercept in the enemy turn so just add to it for friendly ships etc. to intercept if within a given range of a spotted attacking enemy ship. The intercepting ships etc. don't need to move just as intercepting fighters don't move. I'm sure it's not that simple but it should be possible and would add a great deal to the naval side of the game that needs help, again IMHO.

Balancing and reducing movement and spotting and giving Destroyers a zone of control among other things has really improved things for me. Also reduced Subs diving from 40% to 30%. Will post my mod soon.

Ported my Naval mod to WAW and just waiting or Major-01 bitmap bug to be addressed. Can't play the mod very well without a proper showing of he Royal Navy.

Hope the bitmap bug is fixed soon so we can see your mod. I put the game on the shelf until it gets some serious help for the naval mechanics.

The strategy used by the naval AI needs work:

* Allied naval should dominate Axis unless Axis diverts a big share of there MPP to ships. Right now now it's too easy to take out Allied navy
* UK tends to rush ships towards German ships leaving CVs and BBs exposed to counters by subs.
* UK/US should build more destroyers and rush anti-sub tech
* US in Pacific - moves fleet to Solomons and it's too easy to totally decimate fleet.
* As in WiE, AI sends out un-escorted transports, AVL and AV - becomes a real turkey shoot.

On CVs - they are too easy to attack with surface ships. IRL CVs were never (or almost never) attacked by surface ships as CVs would have annihilated surface ships without air cover. In game, you can just pounce on CVs with no repercussions.

Subs diving is annoying. You shouldn't be able to control the English Channel with an all SS fleet. Maybe model maritime bombers to have an intercept mode or something like that?

The ground AI is really good so hoping the naval AI will catch-up somewhat.

The, (not official) (my) upcoming Naval Mod addressed two of these concerns:

On CVs - they are too easy to attack with surface ships. IRL CVs were never (or almost never) attacked by surface ships as CVs would have annihilated surface ships without air cover. In game, you can just pounce on CVs with no repercussions.

The added zones of control make it very hard to isolate a CV or CVL if you use the Screening TFs properly. Then when you do, there is a 70% change your attack will be evaded. So far in my play throughs it's working quite well.

Subs diving is annoying. You shouldn't be able to control the English Channel with an all SS fleet. Maybe model maritime bombers to have an intercept mode or something like that?

I've beefed up the ASW of the Maritime bomber quite a bit as well as the Hunter Killer TF. If you use these two to hunt down subs you should have good success.

The AI is doing very well at adapting to my new wrinkels. I'm impressed at Hubert's work. It still does some unwise things but all in all it's very good in the Mod.

After a few run throughs...

@Hairog - your mod looks interesting. I like the zone of control idea as it prevents BB/CAs rushing in to take out CVs which is not realistic.

Hairog, I love your ideas and I've been interested in doing similar work, I'm fairly new to the game and just started messing around with the editor but it seems to have great flexibility. If you need a volunteer for play testing or help working on some of this let me know. I've been working on a mod for the WWI Battle of Jutland.

ORIGINAL: ThunderLizard2

@Hairog - your mod looks interesting. I like the zone of control idea as it prevents BB/CAs rushing in to take out CVs which is not realistic.

Thanks for the encouragement Thunder Lizard. The discussion is mostly HERE now.

If your opponent does not use his Screening Task Forces properly, you can still slide up to a Carrier but you will only have a 30% chance of damaging it and your unit will be pretty much toast next turn as it will have no movement points left. So it is still possible to recreate a Task Force Taffee or the sinking of the RN Glorious. But is should be rare.

ORIGINAL: Michael WIldner

Hairog, I love your ideas and I've been interested in doing similar work, I'm fairly new to the game and just started messing around with the editor but it seems to have great flexibility. If you need a volunteer for play testing or help working on some of this let me know. I've been working on a mod for the WWI Battle of Jutland.

Great news Michael! We do need volunteers. The latest version of the mod will be posted in this thread hopefully later tonight.

I will put up some challenges on PBEM that you can participate in. What GW and I did was to ignore the land units for the most part and just moved the Task Forces around. We need more playtesting so you can test it against AI or try PBEM.