Matrix Games Forums

correct - fish don't pursue do they? you just want them running around randomly. then it doesn't matter what mission type they are on, the mission just keeps the moving.

Make their side blind. It keeps them from pursuing and it also improves run time by limiting the number of detection calculations going on under the hood.

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen
My problem is that in the database, most false contacts are easily identified as (biologics or otherwise) false contacts by observing how they move. The result is that an experienced player doesn't drop many torpedoes on false contacts. There needs to be some kind of false contact unit which is truly indistinguishable from a submarine without being subject to classification.

Why? Most sonar operators are probably good enough to tell a biologic from a real contact. Seaman Beaumont doesn't count.

Why? Most sonar operators are probably good enough to tell a biologic from a real contact. Seaman Beaumont doesn't count.

It depends. After some examination, yes certainly, however, you if you make an initial detection and classification off of maybe a few sniffs of narrowband signal excess, Doppler, etc. then maybe not. It's dependent on the classification criteria (some of them might be more conservative than others), the systems involved, the type of sonar target, etc.

I'm actually thinking more along the lines of a generic "false contact" unit, though. False contacts have a variety of origins, not all of them biological. None the less, the whole point of them is that regardless of origins, they are not quickly distinguishable from submarines. There needs to be a false contact that neither the player or the AI can quickly distinguish as not a submarine. Right now, the AI can't tell the difference, but an experienced player can. The result is that false contacts don't have the impact on the game that's intended if the player is experienced.

I have Goblins trigger a pop-up alert for my setup right now. And depending on the range from my primary assets, I might shoot first identify later. For example, a contact close Ronny carrier group.

Where this gets tricky is scenarios with unknown neutral/allied subs

Where this gets tricky is scenarios with unknown neutral/allied subs

I've actually been considering populating my "false contact" side with submarines of various sorts which might be present in the scenario and making them blind. The purpose would be to fool a player into dropping torpedoes on them. They'd certainly be more difficult to recognize. I need to experiment with that.

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen

Where this gets tricky is scenarios with unknown neutral/allied subs

I've actually been considering populating my "false contact" side with submarines of various sorts which might be present in the scenario and making them blind. The purpose would be to fool a player into dropping torpedoes on them. They'd certainly be more difficult to recognize. I need to experiment with that.

Seems a little cheesy. You could have another side that's like "NATO subs" (example if playing USN) that is blind and neutral to the enemy so they don't attack, and tell the player to PID all contacts (this at least takes more time). Or, it would be cool if there was another false contact/biological "unit" added that was more ambiguous, acoustically.

there are 3 false contact units in addition to the fish...

ORIGINAL: Whicker

there are 3 false contact units in addition to the fish...

Right, but last I checked they can't move? My go to when finding one is panicking for a bit, attempting to localize it, failing to do so, and eventually realizing it's probably just a false contact. I guess this is the desired behavior, but if it moved like a sub I'd be even more likely to torpedo it.

I know Biologics (fish) can confuse the tactical picture - but hundreds of commercial aircraft and fishing vessels can do the same thing. And perhaps to a greater degree than fish. This is a difficult one for scenario designers to grapple with. We can spend a month researching the geopolitical situation and OOB, then realized our pixel troops are not fighting in a sterile environment where everything is hostile. This is a important topic with no clear answer. At what point in scenario design do you add in non hostile actors? Do you add them at all and if so how many?

Kevin

I tend to use a SEAD mission, then the biologics will continually wander around because they cannot do anything else anyway. If an ASW mission there is a chance that they will follow a sub if they bump into it... I've seen it!.


There are three False contacts and there is an ask for a magnetic False contact. They will move if you set them up that way. I usually leave them stationary along ridgelines and harbour entrances etc to simulate wrecks.


If you want to set up a migration pattern, set the zone for your patrol on the other side of the game area and the Biologics will transit the area, and you can set the speed but it doesn't make that much difference.


I like the minelaying mission idea, that will work well.

ORIGINAL: Tailhook
Seems a little cheesy. You could have another side that's like "NATO subs" (example if playing USN) that is blind and neutral to the enemy so they don't attack, and tell the player to PID all contacts (this at least takes more time). Or, it would be cool if there was another false contact/biological "unit" added that was more ambiguous, acoustically.

I often have some small numbers of subs that the player is instructed not to attack. They're not typically friendly, either, which puts the player in the awkward situation of them being allowed to attack the player but the player can't attack them. Since I design my scenarios on a 100 point scale (100 being 100% of the job complete), destroying any one of them would be essentially a -100 point scoring event. That's a different phenomenology, I'm trying to capture with that.

The thing about false contacts is that they shouldn't be obviously just a torpedo sink to even an experienced player. Right now, I don't see a way to do it without just using a mix of hostile submarines.