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RE: Mig 21 downs MIC darling...
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:58 pm
by Lokasenna
ORIGINAL: US87891
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Oh look, talking about dogfighting in modern fighter aircraft again. Dogfighting is essentially irrelevant for the US military. It is a thing of the past. There are no modern dogfights. Get over it. Modern weapons and therefore aircraft are designed to win from beyond the horizon, and the technology enables this.
What we have here, in addition to poor reporting, is a failure to understand modern warfare. +1 to all the "this is a special circumstance, you shouldn't extrapolate anything from this" comments so far. Glad to see there are some level heads present.
Yes, failure to understand modern warfare is, indeed, a pervasive problem. Much of the problem stems from the perception that since a thing is more modern, it must be more better. Any military professional knows what that perception is worth. As to the relevance of "dogfighting" to modern military aircraft, I would refer you to the multiple Requests for Information, series DARPA-SN-17/18, particularly SN-18-08, 18-26, resulting from the experiences of USAF/IAF joint exercises (Red Flag, Blue Flag, Pitch Black, Cope India), wherein the Israeli IAF and, especially, the Indian IAF showed that judicious tactical innovation made WVR engagement not only possible, but also extremely deadly to high-value, stand-off, air assets, to the great consternation of USAF-ATTO.
The internet amateur war gaming community may not be talking about dogfighting anymore, but DoD, DARPA, USAF, USN, USMC sure as hell are.
Just because they requested the information doesn't mean it's a primary part of combat. They just cover all their bases (as they should - that's their job).
Also, visual range combat does not equal dogfighting.
Nobody here is claiming to be an aerial combat expert, but attempts to discredit folks as so-called amateurs (as a so-called amateur oneself) is rather disrespectful, don'tcha think? Appeals to authority do not make for persuasive arguments.
RE: Mig 21 downs MIC darling...
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:01 pm
by Rusty1961
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
ORIGINAL: Rusty1961
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Oh look, talking about dogfighting in modern fighter aircraft again.
Yet you felt some insatiable need to comment on this thread. Why is that?
Every thread I start finds you urinating and defecating like your some German shepherd dog waiting for that last trip to the vet for "nighty-night"
Bitch and moan, moan and bitch.
If you really can't restrain yourself go ahead and just don't contribute to the thread, Mr. Complainer, or better yet put me on hide.
You have zero expertise in this area and I know I get very tired of your constant trolling.
Since there are no merits to your two rage-induced follow-up posts, I can't respond to them further.
I'll just say that you calling me a troll is ironic. Have a care and go read your posts (and mine if you like) for actual cases of abuse that has been leveled. Any honest accounting is going to come out awful one-sided.
If you don't want me to respond to your senseless, breathless drivel - then don't post it here.
Rage? Post #12 was a factual response to your uneducated response to the initial post. Yet you wouldn't address my comments on the failure of the USAF to anticipate the evolution of Air Combat in Vietnam.
I hope your aim is better than your judgement.
RE: Mig 21 downs MIC darling...
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:02 pm
by Rusty1961
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
ORIGINAL: Rusty1961
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Oh look, talking about dogfighting in modern fighter aircraft again.
Yet you felt some insatiable need to comment on this thread. Why is that?
Every thread I start finds you urinating and defecating like your some German shepherd dog waiting for that last trip to the vet for "nighty-night"
Bitch and moan, moan and bitch.
If you really can't restrain yourself go ahead and just don't contribute to the thread, Mr. Complainer, or better yet put me on hide.
You have zero expertise in this area and I know I get very tired of your constant trolling.
Since there are no merits to your two rage-induced follow-up posts, I can't respond to them further.
I'll just say that you calling me a troll is ironic. Have a care and go read your posts (and mine if you like) for actual cases of abuse that has been leveled. Any honest accounting is going to come out awful one-sided.
If you don't want me to respond to your senseless, breathless drivel - then don't post it here.
So if I post something of interest to me I have to tolerate your pissing and shitting all over my thread?
RE: Mig 21 downs MIC darling...
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:37 pm
by MBF
yep [:)]
RE: Mig 21 downs MIC darling...
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:10 pm
by Lokasenna
ORIGINAL: Rusty1961
So if I post something of interest to me I have to tolerate your pissing and shitting all over my thread?
ORIGINAL: MBF
yep [:)]
If we have to tolerate you doing that all over the forum (which we do, unless you do something to get yourself banned)... then yes, what this guy said.
Maybe if you posted articles that weren't fact-lite/fact-free sensationalist "journalism"...
You also don't seem to understand that it's not
your thread. This is a community. It belongs to all of us.
RE: Mig 21 downs MIC darling...
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:37 pm
by Rusty1961
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
ORIGINAL: Rusty1961
So if I post something of interest to me I have to tolerate your pissing and shitting all over my thread?
ORIGINAL: MBF
yep [:)]
If we have to tolerate you doing that all over the forum (which we do, unless you do something to get yourself banned)... then yes, what this guy said.
Maybe if you posted articles that weren't fact-lite/fact-free sensationalist "journalism"...
You also don't seem to understand that it's not
your thread. This is a community. It belongs to all of us.
What is your malfunction? You not get enough attention from mommy and daddy so you make yourself the "gate keeper" of this forum?
You that much of a Drama queen that if you don't like a thread you come in, immediately denigrate the thread and drag the discussion into personal attacks which ends up getting said thread shut down.
That is you MO. You don't like the thread you shut it down.
I can assure you, Mr. Cartoon Character, you wouldn't try this shit face-to-face.
RE: Mig 21 downs MIC darling...
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:25 pm
by panzer cat
Outnumbered 3-1, no BVR capability to even up the odds and probably playing against the INA a team.
RE: Mig 21 downs MIC darling...
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:32 pm
by Rusty1961
ORIGINAL: panzer cat
Outnumbered 3-1, no BVR capability to even up the odds and probably playing against the INA a team.
If the US loses at 3 to 1 how will they do at 8 to 1? Most American planes are now hanger queens so yeah, they'll be heavily outnumbered.
RE: Mig 21 downs MIC darling...
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:32 am
by FlyByKnight
That's an
intersting source to choose. Golly gee, I wonder if an INDIAN website would be willing to tilt the story a little at the expense of Pakistan. I wonder if their description of the Indian Air force's traning as "intense" might be a little too gleaming. Maybe Pakistan's air force isn't the best when it comes to training.
Used to hearing the United States is second only to god, the US leadership nearly burst a collective artery.
Oh geeze, it's like I'm reading another article on Salon or Gizmodo. The snark, it burns!
RE: Mig 21 downs MIC darling...
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:11 am
by RangerJoe
Yes, and if you read another article with the same author, he advocates India dismembering Pakistan.
RE: Mig 21 downs MIC darling...
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:53 pm
by Jorge_Stanbury
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
Yes, and if you read another article with the same author, he advocates India dismembering Pakistan.
With these kind of propaganda, "Russia Today" style articles, I like to verify articles in this website:
https://www.bellingcat.com/
it takes the time to debunk lies
RE: Mig 21 downs MIC darling...
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:34 pm
by Orm
Gentlemen. Would it be to much to ask for this to be a civil discussion?
Please, be nice.
[:)]
RE: Mig 21 downs MIC darling...
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:24 pm
by Rusty1961
ORIGINAL: Orm
Gentlemen. Would it be to much to ask for this to be a civil discussion?
Please, be nice.
[:)]
Yeah, kind of hard to do that when certain people are hell-bent on dragging the conversation into the gutter.
RE: Mig 21 downs MIC darling...
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:54 pm
by rustysi
ORIGINAL: Rusty1961
ORIGINAL: Orm
Gentlemen. Would it be to much to ask for this to be a civil discussion?
Please, be nice.
[:)]
Yeah, kind of hard to do that when certain people are hell-bent on dragging the conversation into the gutter.
OK, but most of these conversations are not meant for this forum.
RE: Mig 21 downs MIC darling...
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:48 pm
by Rusty1961
ORIGINAL: rustysi
ORIGINAL: Rusty1961
ORIGINAL: Orm
Gentlemen. Would it be to much to ask for this to be a civil discussion?
Please, be nice.
[:)]
Yeah, kind of hard to do that when certain people are hell-bent on dragging the conversation into the gutter.
OK, but most of these conversations are not meant for this forum.
So don't read it. Problem solved, problem staying solved.
RE: Mig 21 downs MIC darling...
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:24 pm
by rustysi
About what I expected.
There are certain rules governing this site. If YOU don't wish to adhere to them please leave.
RE: Mig 21 downs MIC darling...
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:35 pm
by btd64
This thread is going to get locked if the discussion stays this way....GP
RE: Mig 21 downs MIC darling...
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:42 pm
by Lokasenna
ORIGINAL: Rusty1961
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
ORIGINAL: Rusty1961
So if I post something of interest to me I have to tolerate your pissing and shitting all over my thread?
ORIGINAL: MBF
yep [:)]
If we have to tolerate you doing that all over the forum (which we do, unless you do something to get yourself banned)... then yes, what this guy said.
Maybe if you posted articles that weren't fact-lite/fact-free sensationalist "journalism"...
You also don't seem to understand that it's not
your thread. This is a community. It belongs to all of us.
What is your malfunction? You not get enough attention from mommy and daddy so you make yourself the "gate keeper" of this forum?
You that much of a Drama queen that if you don't like a thread you come in, immediately denigrate the thread and drag the discussion into personal attacks which ends up getting said thread shut down.
That is you MO. You don't like the thread you shut it down.
I can assure you, Mr. Cartoon Character, you wouldn't try this shit face-to-face.
1) I'm doing no such thing (shutting down a thread).
2) Your not-so-veiled threats are likely outside the bounds of appropriate forum behavior. That's why your threads get locked, by the way. That said, I think you'd find my physical presence surprising.
3) I've instigated no personal attacks. You've confused my attack on your position, which is simply debate, with an attack on your person.
RE: Mig 21 downs MIC darling...
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:48 pm
by rustysi
That said, I think you'd find my physical presence surprising.
Now, now boys, lets try and play nice.[:D]
You've confused my attack on your position, which is simply debate, with an attack on your person.
There's a lot of that going on these days.[8|]
RE: Mig 21 downs MIC darling...
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:49 pm
by Anachro
I think people need to cool it. There's been a bit of back and forth incendiary in this thread, partially due to built-up bad blood in past threads. Rather than spouting or responding to such incendiary, either stick to the thread topic and its merits/demerits or don't post at all. For both of you, I think that's the best course here.