Matrix Games Forums

Just took a vacation today from WitE Fall Blau German Solo. But I'll be back. I pretty much use the editors to drill down and customize the experience. I've never played a stock scenario and never played MP.

Simpler games can be quite good. But as you mention HexWar, they don't generally support their games after release. They published a Field of Glory I type game on Steam that would have been great if they just issued a simple patch to solve a simple problem. But no. And I have one Yobo game, and sorry, one playthrough is all you get until they release an editor for them.

Here's the trick with Order of Battle (not that anyone cares). Just open the editor and every unit and nation from every DLC is available. Just change the year of battle back and forth. Scripting is so easy and you can make a nice scenario for yourself, but no campaign.

I am no where near through with Panzer Corps series and Battle Academy and BAII. These are simpler games but at their core (pardon the pun) are a lot alike. So PC2 is not on my list.

I really hope they can pull off Warplan and then support it.

Hmm well I suppose I can say that WitE2 is the same as PC2.
Not really a 'new game', just an opportunity to pay a bunch for a few desired tweaks.

Not sure I ever mentioned Hexwar (I know of them though).

I've not experienced Order of Battle yet. I have the free to use limited usage option to check out. But it seems a bit too much like PC.

The steak or chicken analogy isn't really accurate. Steak can be a great 20 dollar t-bone done to perfection by a skilled chef, served with an awesome baked potato and a cold glass of beer along with musical accompaniment or dinner theatre. Or just a typical mediocre 4 oz steak in a mundane restaraunt. I'm lucky, my fiance is a trained chef. I can have that awesome dinner as often as I want But eventually even it gets a bit much. Sometimes all you need is a Big Mac and fries and a drink of coke

And I don't need to mention, more people want the Big Mac than the 20 dollar T-Bone dinner

But, I asked Joni Nuutinen in an email about coming to PC, and he essentially said small wargames go bankrupt almost immediately.
So I'm left to wonder, how does say Shenandoah Studios do it?
Well, for that matter, how does Gary and company manage it?
I personally wonder how wargames publishers manage at all?
I'm aware of the real story behind the merger with Matrix Games and Slitherine. It was Slitherine coming to the rescue of Matrix Games (if you were not aware of this).
War in the East is a heck of a lot of work I'm sure. And War in the West, and the add ons (which I have bought for some reason ).
Those games are not cheap. But even still, it's not like they are selling millions of units. I'm not even going to try to ask how many units have sold. We all know, we are not a very large population of gamers.

It's amazing we have as many wargames available of any sort to browse through.
I doubt any of our game making types are living the high life

I value titles that remain well supported though. That's one thing to the credit of a lot of our titles.

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

Hmm well I suppose I can say that WitE2 is the same as PC2.
Not really a 'new game', just an opportunity to pay a bunch for a few desired tweaks.

Disagreed there, the air system from WiTW is a HUGE new layer that they're adding to the game. "a few desired tweaks" is definitely short-selling the work the devs are putting into the new game.

Really no idea what Call of Duty has to do with this!!?? Confusing.

A war game is a war game I have exactly same idea what a war game is as you do.

Surely no one sit OK eyesight can be that blind they can't look at Matrix games forum and see the endless amount of medium to light wargames and the few hard-core ones.

Please write me out this big list of hard-core wargames out of due out as I can't wait to see it.

Sorry on this you sound like you're from an alternate universe where everything is the other way round

Aha!

Just realised you obviously know what you said was controversial and would wind people up so you did it to watch people bite! You don't really have any issues. Just like posting controversial stuff.

Hehe naughty girl you

Please, less drama. I bought Korsun Battle because its a visual blast and it deceived me by boring turns. So if the Big Mac had for name Complicated Mac, would it an international celebrity? And this celebrity actor who ask him why he turns in navet films and who answers:"I hope to play more others!"[:D]

ORIGINAL: Infierno

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

Hmm well I suppose I can say that WitE2 is the same as PC2.
Not really a 'new game', just an opportunity to pay a bunch for a few desired tweaks.

Disagreed there, the air system from WiTW is a HUGE new layer that they're adding to the game. "a few desired tweaks" is definitely short-selling the work the devs are putting into the new game.

It's called tit for tat. It's an expression, look it up

It's like calling Battle Academy silly because it uses comic looking graphics in the pre-game launch.
Meet me on the battlefield, and then demonstrate how 'easy' it is Chess isn't a light game it's just possible to play several games in an afternoon.

As I said, a GAME shouldn't be 'work'.

ORIGINAL: wodin

Really no idea what Call of Duty has to do with this!!?? Confusing.

A war game is a war game I have exactly same idea what a war game is as you do.

Surely no one sit OK eyesight can be that blind they can't look at Matrix games forum and see the endless amount of medium to light wargames and the few hard-core ones.

Please write me out this big list of hard-core wargames out of due out as I can't wait to see it.

Sorry on this you sound like you're from an alternate universe where everything is the other way round

Call of Duty was me suggesting, it takes more than a military theme, to be a 'wargame' in some manners of definition.

Some games can offer a full range of simulation, and not require the gamer spend days instead of minutes to execute a turn. I think a turn in Strategic Command can cover a lot of decision making, but not require a thousand mouse clicks. The amount of individual units doesn't automatically translate into a superior experience.

I think some of you guys likely enjoy doing income taxes

Big list dear? not sure precisely what you are aiming at.
Here at Matrix Games, well yeah, they have the short and sweet, they have the major league hardcore, but they have plenty that are really neither. I'd guess half the list though is not even up for consideration. I'm talking mainly WW2 and board game looking as well.

ORIGINAL: rico21

Please, less drama. I bought Korsun Battle because its a visual blast and it deceived me by boring turns. So if the Big Mac had for name Complicated Mac, would it an international celebrity? And this celebrity actor who ask him why he turns in navet films and who answers:"I hope to play more others!"[:D]

I'm wondering precisely has been an example of 'drama'. Is it just you think a woman has to be all about drama? Hey, I write romance novels. None of this thread has been 'drama' though.

Too complicated == too time eater-----\
--------------------------------------------->>>>>>>Drama[:(]
Not enough complicated == boring -----/

The fact you are a woman(cheers) does no enter in the equation![;)] [:D]

I think Frank Hunters games have the right balance of complicated ease of use. Another one not mentioned alot here is Combat Command (2) The Matrix Edition. There are other mid games that I enjoy but wont mention because it´s all based on personal taste/needs, but what I will add from my own, is that one is not always in the mood, and/or has time to get into a complicated game.

As someone stated here in another similar topic thread, time is a big factor now day´s, we even rush to have fun! But not eveyone is the same or lives the same, so we should be happy we can choose.

There´s bigger issues, like unfinished games, or with game breaking bugs, and over priced price tags that we should complain about, and by this I mean in general. So having the right to choose, and having what to choose is all good with me. But yeah I hear ya Mrs. Wargamer, and don´t worry, some can´t stand a proper based oppinion [:D]

Good care...

Red

spelling...

Good posts, I just started an easy game that I love, Panzer Korps, I love this game. I was trying to get into the AGeod games, but so far, nothing g going on. Maybe play Battlefield 5 later

balance and scale depends on your skill level and lack of time or amount of time you have at any given moment, for me i play little now days, but test a lot, so i'm quite at home testing WITE2, but also feel fine on doing all of Yobowargames and a few other indy dev's testing, i'm more than happy to play a board type war game, or a year long game which takes all week to do one week of turns, each have there own merits and both have some advantages /disadvantages as well.

so what ever you enjoy, that's fine in my eyes

I admire complicated wargames but I've always had trouble sticking with them. The one exception is TOAW, especially in its latest iteration.

Like all of us I'm always looking for that perfect wargame, but in the meantime I'll settle for Panzer Corps 2!

regarding perfect, isn't that always the one next which isn't out?

as speaking from a testers point of view, wish lists and perfection don't go well with developers, unless you wish for it to be in development for ever and a day, and never get released, some times you have to step back, take a long hard look and just except things how they are now, and not dream of everything you wish to alter, amend and put into a game, or it never see's the light of day.

to think how far games have come, cardboard from tin soldiers or even hand carved from wood then painted even, to a pc, in my life time, so the next few years can only get better, with a odd few games going backwards in some eyes or static in others[:D]

While I love complex games and have purchased more than a few monsters, I appreciate the smaller games simply because I can have a full experience in a shorter amount of time. My daily free time is usually limited, and I’m usually tired (between work and kids), and so there’s rarely a time when firing up a monster like WitE sounds like a good idea. It certainly has a strong appeal, but then I look at the clock and it’s already 10:30PM and it would be bedtime before I could even review the rules...and firing up a simpler game just makes more sense.

I still buy those games from time to time, telling myself that I’ll have time to play them...someday. Hopefully my eyesight holds up well into the retirement years!

i've bee retired 20 years, said when i first retired, i was going to spend every day on a different book and each night on a different game, other half had different idea's, so every day she finds me jobs, so i can enjoy myself doing them and not getting bored?

and then every night i can sit and watch the junk she watches? nope, that didn't happen either.

but on the book part, i'm slowly getting down a long list which keeps growing of books i need to read, but games, i think i have more now not played than i did 20 years ago, so that didn't work out so well either, but one day maybe i'll start some, been that long mind you for some of them, might be an issue to even get them to work now days[:D]

life is meant to be simple, retire means enjoy, and while i do enjoy not working, not quite ended up how i thought it was going to be, then again plans and dreams, tend to by like that, but can't complain, keep waking up each morning, so another bonus[:D]

In board war gaming you had the classic 60s style (albeit simply and somewhat boring) games such as Afrika Korps, D-Day, Battle of the Bulge, Waterloo and Chancellorville.

Then something wonderful happened in 1969, SPI was born and during the 70s thanks to JFD you got Panzerblitz, Normandy, Barbarossa, Bastogne, Borodino, Austerlitz, Breakout & Pursuit, Bull Run, France 1940, 1812 and War In The East (1st edition 1974).

These all led to all the Quad games (Napoleon at War, North Africa, West Wall, AGS and Modern Battles, plus the Blue and Gray) and then to the “monsters”: War in Europe, War in the Pacific, Campaign for North Africa, Atlantic Wall, Terrible Swift Sword and Wellington’s Victory. Not to mention all the modern war concepts like The East is Red, The Next War, Oil War and so many other titles. Red Star/White Star, Mech War 77, Mech War 2, Air War, etc.

The 70s was the golden age of board war games, with companies like GDW producing The Europa Series, and the Third World War Series along with the Assault Series. It also saw the revival of AH which finally produced some good games like Anzio, The Longest Day and Squad Leader.

The 80s-90s saw some more improvements with The Gamers OCS and SCS series, both of which were more complex and enjoyable then the old Classics of Year’s gone by.

So the point is, most war gamers are hard core, have many tastes and want many games usually more complex or intricate then before.

So I don’t agree with your arguments.

Alas, MrsWargamer, I couldn't disagree more with your opinion. For myself, I relish War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition. It, and its predecessors, have been on my hard drive for 17 years.

Those other games you cite? Mere baubles of gaming. I can't imagine dropping $40 for something that provides me with mere days of gaming pleasure. I paid $80-$100 (I forget exactly) for WITP:AE 10 years ago. I still play it daily. In terms of $/hour of gaming, it's fractions of pennies.

To each their own. I hope the designers are listening out there to those that hunger for realism, inclusiveness, depth AND breadth in their games.

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
The thing is, Gary's War in the East is the entire Russian Front start to finish to a point. How many times though, does the market need that sort of product. Gary essentially eliminated much of any reason to try.

Meanwhile, the Russian front is just a massive sum of potential important battles.
I think there's lots of room for a lot of lesser complexity product.

I much prefer complex wargames and generally won't touch simple games.

That said, complexity for it's own sake is also a huge turn off. I haven't played WitE in years, not because it was too complex, but because the combat model was a black box that produced strange results, and because the "Eastern Front" produced by the game did not bear even a passing resemblance to my understanding of the real thing (think carpets of entrenched Soviet troops extending back several hexes...).

Actually I think that the Eastern Front from 1941-1945 is very difficult, if not impossible, to model in a game, because it will virtually never resemble the real thing. Between the many unique factors and the fact that both sides made huge mistakes which can generally avoided by players with the advantage of hindsight, without a bunch of very restrictive rules, the Eastern Front will simply look different in most games.

I also don't care for WiF, not because it is too complex, but because I don't like its air/land/sea play mechanics (or the fact that the Europe=only scenarios, which I wanted, were AFAIK, never finished...).

That's why my favorite East Front games are the Panzer Campaigns series which are very large, but not especially complex, and which focus on the operational rather than strategic level.