Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:17 pm**

Lobster, thank you for your honesty. An answer like that is greatly appreciated. I do hope you do not get penalized for it from anyone on the development team.

No one here dislikes the operational art of war. It is what draws us together. We like it very much. If we didn't like it, we'd be off anxiously awaiting the game aimed for kiddies that Slitherine just announced.

Sadly, Eric Rukins sold Matrix to Slitherine and it appears that he has no real authority to do much of anything. Matrix, as us old timers once knew, simply does not exist anymore. We are now dealing with the corporate world of Slitherine who seems to have little appetite for the games that made Matrix a staple for us. I have no desire to visit the Slitherine website and see the sad litany of games that they promote.

The old Matrix guys are a dying breed - no thanks to Slitherine.

Edit: and if you do get crap from the development team or Slitherine, tell them simply to "pis* off". It is time for the culprits to receive their just rewards. If you don't want to tell them, then I would be happy to. How about unlimited rum and diet cola?

Posted: **Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:45 pm**

I'll tell you what, the kids under 25 yrs old don't play the games we like for the most part.

Posted: **Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:49 pm**

Right! They prefer first person shooters. If they can't kill someone, then life sucks.

Posted: **Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:57 pm**

As Elvis sang so long ago "Money, honey, if you want to get along with me".

Had the privilege of spending an afternoon with him one day, then an evening several months later.

At the end, a sad waste of so much talent.

A sad waste of such a great game.

Posted: **Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:34 pm**

Good point

Posted: **Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:35 pm**

I do my best for such a dum,ass Marine.

Posted: **Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:54 pm**

Edit: Deleted. Not meant for public consumption.

Posted: **Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:08 pm**

ORIGINAL: Lobster

ORIGINAL: 76mm
TOAW is the sole outlier, I have no idea why...

I know I know (wildly waving his hand in the air) ask me ask me! It's Ralph's fault.

/Wall Of Words Begin [:D]

At one time he was all up for this game. Even had a blog for it. Now it's a part time 'job' (I use the term loosely)
/speculation ensues
that seems to be far down his priority list. Why he doesn't just hand it off to someone who might have more desire to do justice as the game's developer I don't know. Maybe he makes enough off it to want to hold on.
/end speculation

So if past history of TOAWIV is anything to go by nothing is going to change. Ever. Bob does the best he can with what he has to work with. Bugs fixes don't get distributed without going through Ralph and then Matrix. Some people want to get rid of Bob and replace him with some unknown imaginary person because they feel Bob is just doing stuff for Bob. However, there is a plan for advancing the game and from what I understand that plan was developed with the help of the community at some time in the past. So if Bob is following that plan, and he is, then how can the people who helped come up with the plan be unhappy with it?

Not long ago I asked Tamas if the sequence of how the plan was laid out could be changed for very logical reasons and he politely said no (he is much more diplomatic than I [:D]). So, like I said, nothing will change. Instead of filling this forum with the same things maybe send Erik Rutkins some PMs and rag on him about bug fixes? Especially hot fixes for things that clearly impact the game in a negative way. Or Bart, who probably won't do anything since he is just a temp fill in. I've seen some people say he hasn't shown up here and said anything. How would you like to show up in this forum as the temp project manager knowing you will get thoroughly dumped on. I know I would stay away because the hostility towards management is not recent. I know because I've been part of it since Ralph vanished at 3.5 and didn't surface again for years.

I highly doubt making the game look like a steaming pile of cow dung will do anything other than drive customers away which will result in the eventual demise of the game. It isn't dead now but it can be killed by the very people who like it. It isn't a bad game, it's a good game. It has a bad developer. One guy. Don't destroy the game by tearing it down because of him.

/Wall Of Words End

I'm both surprised and impressed. This is something I completely agree with Jack on.

As far as TOAW's concerned, I'm not giving up hope, but I've gone ahead and uninstalled III and IV. First time in about 20 years that I don't have any version of TOAW on a computer, but for now at least, I don't see the need to.

Maybe something will change in the future and I'll reinstall. I hope so. For now though, I'll just remember the fun I've had playing scenarios, and never finishing a bunch of projects.

I hope you don't get in any trouble either Jack. Well said.

Posted: **Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:20 pm**

IMHO Lobster hit the nail on the head. Ralph is the main problem with this project. It's like this project doesn't have a developer. At least for several long periods of time. Like right now. I'd like to see TOAW become an open source project so that us computer programmers could help out. Update the GUI more, fix bugs, expand the features of the game engine, develop some MODS for the community, maybe develop some "skins" so that some eye candy could be applied to the GUI, maybe do away with the some of the abstraction by adding some new code to simulate new features, etc. I'd like to see a night mission for the aircraft, aerial re-supply via air drops, some simple recon missions to reveal hidden enemy units, movement of troops and cargo via aircraft ( airport to airport ), the ability to attack city hexes to damage factory infrastructure, and so on. We could spend the rest of our lives making this game better because there's so much to do. Ralph has developed the AI a lot, thanks Ralph, but more could be done to give Elmer a strategic sense. Maybe more and better sound effects. And of course, an easier editor. To do all this stuff using the traditional development method would take years but as an open source project multiple threads of production could take place. I'm thinking of sending Bart an email just to say HI. [ b.w.schouten(at)hotmail(dot)com ]

Posted: **Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:54 pm**

Larry,

Both you and Jack (Lobster) are correct. The game/project DOES NOT have a dedicated developer, just someone who has access to the sourcecode, and stops by every 6-12 months or so. That's the way it's been for how many years now? I forget.

I'd forgotten there is/was a master "wishlist" of items to improve and add on to TOAW. Parts of it I understand are being worked on (by Bob Cross) and implemented where possible. Problems arise I'll wager, when the man with the overall plan and access to everything is needed to put it all together, and he isn't around to do so.

You mention open source. I don't think it's very likely (nice idea though). Someone is controlling the code and I don't think they are willing to give it up. Ever. Just my gut feeling, I've got nothing concrete to base this on.

At this point I wonder if it wouldn't be a better idea to bring in a whole new team and start over with a blank sheet of paper, designing a brand new wargame construction set? Even drop the TOAW name in favor of something new as well. This idea I know is really just a pipe dream and most likely will never occur. It calls for a publisher, developer, programmers, artists, etc. Above all it calls for $ and time.

Who knows? Maybe you'll get that open source wish (I hope so), or maybe we'll see the start of something new. Only time will tell. One thing's for certain though: none of us are getting any younger.

Posted: **Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:02 pm**

I think that Matrix/Slitherene has probably spent a pretty penny getting the source code from Norman and, yeah, they probably won't want to give that up. So the answer might be to start with a blank sheet of paper and start an open source project that does what TOAW does now. But in a more concurrent language instead of C. Maybe Python. Or Java. Maybe something that a lot of programmers already know to hit the ground running. And YES a different name for the game engine. I'm wondering how many people we could count on to do a project like that. We'd need an AI expert I'm guessing. What would we call it? I'm thinking SimWar has already been taken. How about Universal Game Engine 5.0

Posted: **Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:14 pm**

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
I'd like to see TOAW become an open source project so that us computer programmers could help out. Update the GUI more, fix bugs, expand the features of the game engine, develop some MODS for the community, maybe develop some "skins" so that some eye candy could be applied to the GUI...

Don't forget *cough cough* hexside rivers...

Just because we haven't had a good hexside river discussion in a while.

Also, as a follow-up to Lobster's informative post, I would like to ask why Bart is a temporary project leader? Why doesn't TOAW rate a permanent leader? What will cause Bart the temporary project leader to be replaced by a permanent leader? And what is the point of appointing a temporary leader to do nothing? I don't mean to pick on Bart--I'm sure he's a wonderful fellow--but I just don't understand his role with this game, or rather whether he has a role.

Finally, while I understand if certain things can't happen if the developer goes AWOL, that is not much of an excuse for the complete lack of communication, which is also a problem.

Posted: **Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:17 pm**

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
But in a more concurrent language instead of C. Maybe Python. Or Java. Maybe something that a lot of programmers already know to hit the ground running. And YES a different name for the game engine. I'm wondering how many people we could count on to do a project like that.

Make it in C# with XML file structures, and I'm in! That's the good news. The bad news is that I probably possess about 1% of the skills for making a game like this, and that might be generous.

Posted: **Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:25 pm**

I like your thinking Larry. If you need someone to redo existing scenario maps I am retired an have plenty of time on my hands. Maybe the crew from WitE/WitW would be interested in giving their game a TOAW scenario design capability. They are running out of places for the game to go and they definitely have the engine to do this. Their development team has no shortage of updates either.

Posted: **Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:27 pm**

ORIGINAL: 76mm
ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
But in a more concurrent language instead of C. Maybe Python. Or Java. Maybe something that a lot of programmers already know to hit the ground running. And YES a different name for the game engine. I'm wondering how many people we could count on to do a project like that.
Make it in C# with XML file structures, and I'm in!

Thank you for your support. I'm not sure Matrix would appreciate us taking up their hard disk space talking about a "civilian" version of the game engine to replace TOAW IV but I've started a thread for us for that:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4727818

I'll teach myself C#. I love the idea of XML file structures. The more we can do in readable english the better. We'll have to give some thought to scaffles. You know, the structures that workmen stand on when they work on a building. The helper programs that will speed production. At the very least an editor to build the scenarios with. I'd like to see the use of scripts to guide the AI. A different file for a different AI. There's so much to discuss about this I thought a different thread, one dedicated to our use, would be appropriate. Let's shift the discussion to there.

Posted: **Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:03 pm**

Be careful in what you say and post in public. Matrix/Slitherene may just say stuff it. I recently had that experience with some software that I purchased 10 years ago. All was going well until a key person decided he could make more money working for a large multinational. The company stuff round for 2 years and after many complaints from customers and people going to other produces the company decided to say they are no longer supporting the software.

I was able to track down the owner of the company and he stated that he was having trouble getting the right staff and then with all the complaints it got to a stage where it was not worth the effort.

Posted: **Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:09 pm**

Larry you are a free agent but I would very strongly encourage you not post about a rival product on this forum. Can I suggest that you set up your own website or closed facebook page. I am sure there are TOAW players who will join you

Posted: **Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:29 pm**

ORIGINAL: fogger

Larry you are a free agent but I would very strongly encourage you not post about a rival product on this forum. Can I suggest that you set up your own website or closed facebook page. I am sure there are TOAW players who will join you

Larry, I'll second that. We go back a long way, and I don't want to see you (for your ideas), or Jack (for his honesty) get into any hot water.

Better to move things off-site from Matrix, when it comes to talking about a new independently developed system. My original comment was made with the thought that Matrix themselves should do something new.

Posted: **Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:03 am**

That's a great idea. I established a Facebook group for us and you can find it here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/571381640314323/

Posted: **Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:53 am**

Maybe not so great for some of us. I do not use facebook nor will I ever.

I like the direction this is going - other than facebook, of course.

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