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FM 5-15 claims that trees as small as 4” across will seriously impede or stop a tank negotiating a 20 degree incline.

I will try a few more scenarios, but it seems that you can adjust the ground conditions to suit individual tastes as to what trees can and can’t do to the eqpt. Or just play all scenarios on the NTC map, lol. Just sunburn, heatstroke, and rattlesnakes. And desert turtles.

Thanks to share the reference.

FM 5-105 says similar things:
https://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/amd-u ... 885%29.pdf
Check page 23.

I was totally wrong [:D] I remember I heard something about maneuverability of tanks in the forest and my memory is clustered with other knowledge and somehow I thought 20cm diameter as the limit of tank maneuver.

Forests with trees 20 to 25 centimeters (8 to 10 inches) in diameter are tank obstacles, and 5-centimeter (2-inch) stands will stop most wheeled vehicles. Fully dependable criteria pertaining to the size of trees, and the significance of species and root systems, have not been determined. Medium tanks, for example, have pushed over single trees as much as 30 centimeters (12 inches) in diameter.

and this

if several trees are pushed over, some will interlock with other trees to form a better obstacle to movement. The protruding root system and trunks of overturned trees are obstacles to vehicles. The critical average distance between trees in forests where the trees are too big to be pushed over is about 3 to 5 meters (10 to 16.5 feet), depending upon whether the trees are regularly or irregularly planted. Although this distance may be wide enough for the vehicle to pass through, in most cases there is no room for turning.

FM 5-30(90) approaches from analytical point of view about vegetation, such as "vegetation overlay" part.
http://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/amd-us ... 33(90).pdf

https://www.benning.army.mil/armor/eARM ... 002web.pdf
Here, there is an article named "Armor Against the Huertgen Forest" This article discuss about the importance of proper maneuvering and counter-maneuver tactics inside the forest.

I think current description of "trafficability" in AB is kinda OK-ish: not 100% realistic but arcade enough to enjoy as 'game' and OK enough to assume as reasonable model of forest. But someone may think forest should a bit more harshier for vehicles then current, and difference of "trafficability" among trees should be better distinguished. Problem is, it wouldn't be easy to fully realistically depict tanks and vehicle maneuverability in the forest, and some sort of assumption and approximation should be involved, otherwise it would be too complicated to make a game and play a game... But maybe it would be OK to increase difficulty for tanks and vehicles to move through a tile of uphill + trees condition. (But I think such description is already involved in current AB)

I think I will just crank up the ground conditions to poor or bad, so far it seems to work reasonably well. Getting tired of the AI sneaking around behind me anyway, lol.

You also have to bear in mind in AB and other games, it is just not forests where movement can be difficult to simulate. Even moving round the flat plains of Germany was not simple especially for wheeled vehicles. You only have to come up a small drainage ditch with steep sides bordering field to find an uncrossable feature which you have to drive around to find a crossing point. Features like this are to small to pick out on satellite views and not on maps so do not feature in games. Only the other day I was discussing with a colleague how they tried to follow a Chieftain and a 432 across a small ditch and it did not work out well, we had to tow it out.

I have even seen wheeled vehicles suddenly sink into the ground when they have come across soft ground in the open plains that they become unmoveable. It happened to me twice, one minute your driving along happily, then next thing you have stoppedand there is grass up to the windows because you have sunk down so far and the only way out is climb out of the back and then get recovery.

But regardless of how Forests are simulated, then you adjust the tactics likewise. I never deploy the main force on the front side of Forest edges using it for cover, but deploy at the rear especially infantry, this then stops the armour etc engaging at maximum ranges and with a good organised defence it just turns into a shooting gallery as you engage tgts from the side and rear as they emerge. And likewise, if they do come through the forest, they struggle to spot infantry close up and then get shot to bits.

I never deploy the main force on the front side of Forest edges using it for cover, but deploy at the rear especially infantry, this then stops the armour etc engaging at maximum ranges and with a good organised defence it just turns into a shooting gallery as you engage tgts from the side and rear as they emerge.

This is very good one, actually this is also what I do in AB, place recon ATGM / tanks or infantry / IFVs in the rear line of forest where they can see the road for exiting-forest enemy force. Then they can aim side or rear armor, which is usually a good choice.

Sometimes I place them in front line of forest or city, but usually this brings fire concentration and artillery so I don't use such placing that much.

ORIGINAL: echo9c

When I was serving in West Germany, in the 80's the German forests were kept very clean with little or no undergrowth. That being said we believed they were an obstacle to tanks and accordingly, we would tie our obstacles into the woods. Then we saw a film made by, if I remember correctly the German Army but it may have been US, a lot of water has gone under the bridge since then. The tanks pushed through the woods even up hill, not fast but they were able to do it without much difficulty. The only way they were able to stop the tanks was to wrap steel wire rope through the woods from tree to tree. I don't remember the diameter of the trees in the woods but they looked like a typical forest found all over the part of Germany I trained in, which was mostly in Bavaria.

This thread brings back memories. Where were you stationed? Ever get to Wildflecken?

Someone brought up a good point about ground conditions. German forests are well cleared and kept, but still present an obstacle to movement. Have any bad weather or soft ground the situation gets worse. Tracked vehicle will chew up dirt and mud tracks very quickly. I will tell you from personal experience that it is not a quick or easy task to fix a thrown track on a tank that has slid into a muddy ditch in the woods! One point to consider is that tank commanders often did recon on foot before moving their tanks into position or along a route. Not sure how or if this is factored into AB.

Given the speeds I saw while I was testing moving through woods when the ground is bad (0-1 kph), you could very well imagine ground guides trying to lead their charges through the maze.

VR view of RoKA K-1 tank from 11th Mech Infantry division.
https://youtu.be/m3ErUunveZk

It can run through the dense woods, but only weak, small, and young trees. Looks like trees of diameter 10cm or less. Still, you can see they pass through very slowly and very carefully.

ORIGINAL: edb1815

ORIGINAL: echo9c

When I was serving in West Germany, in the 80's the German forests were kept very clean with little or no undergrowth. That being said we believed they were an obstacle to tanks and accordingly, we would tie our obstacles into the woods. Then we saw a film made by, if I remember correctly the German Army but it may have been US, a lot of water has gone under the bridge since then. The tanks pushed through the woods even up hill, not fast but they were able to do it without much difficulty. The only way they were able to stop the tanks was to wrap steel wire rope through the woods from tree to tree. I don't remember the diameter of the trees in the woods but they looked like a typical forest found all over the part of Germany I trained in, which was mostly in Bavaria.

This thread brings back memories. Where were you stationed? Ever get to Wildflecken?

Someone brought up a good point about ground conditions. German forests are well cleared and kept, but still present an obstacle to movement. Have any bad weather or soft ground the situation gets worse. Tracked vehicle will chew up dirt and mud tracks very quickly. I will tell you from personal experience that it is not a quick or easy task to fix a thrown track on a tank that has slid into a muddy ditch in the woods! One point to consider is that tank commanders often did recon on foot before moving their tanks into position or along a route. Not sure how or if this is factored into AB.

I did two five year tours with 4 Combat Engineer Regiment, 4 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group, 79-84 and 87-92. Was in Wildflechen a few times. It was a good trg area for engineer stuff. We particularly liked the Beer at the Kloster Kreuzberg Monastery. Also spent a lot of time in the Hohenfels Training Area. And You?

I agree that moving lots of vehicles through a forest even a German one would be difficult (as in very). But, you couldn't just write the woods off as impassible to track vehicles and leave them undefended i.e. leaving a crater group on a track in a woods not covered by fire, because you're short of infantry platoons and you don't think the tanks can get around it because of the trees. As one of the best commanders I worked for would say "the enemy has a vote". I think if you ignored the woods in Germany, most of which had so many black tracks running through them you could be in for a bad day.

In the end this is a hard conversation have here in print. Much better to have it over a beer in person where tone and ideas don't get lost.