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RE: Japanese Shipbuilding Priorities

Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:36 pm
by Q-Ball
Great comments, and love the chart! Thanks gents!

HOSHO isn't that terrible, IMO; terrible hull, but it can make 25 knots and carry 20 planes, so good enough to run with the JUNYOS. I think you treat it like a front-line carrier.

RE: Japanese Shipbuilding Priorities

Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:00 pm
by castor troy
ORIGINAL: jdsrae

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

A year of building Musashi is approx. 250,000 HI, or about 7,000 fighters worth.

Its just that training the extra 5000+ fighter pilots per year to have decent pilots to fly them isn’t so easy.

training them would be one thing but you don't even get that many replacement pilots

RE: Japanese Shipbuilding Priorities

Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:19 pm
by John 3rd
ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

You're right, I should have stated that it doesn't include all the CVEs arriving before '44 to the allied side.

It's a grand total of 22 CVEs for 575 embarked a/c until the end of 1943.


I did the above tables taking into consideration the balance for a defensive maneuvre battle, in which I am likely to bring into action my full firepower, while the allies are unlikely to bring CVEs as well.

It has been done more to represent the not so huge delta between allies and Japan even into '44 when we take into consideration sheer numbers only.

To be fair, I don't find it changes much. Especially if you consider that in 1942 you get "only" 8 CVEs with 221 embarked a/c.
The big change happens after mid-43 and, even more, after mid-44


And... Hosho is amazing! It has 25knts of top speed: enough to stay with KB2!


PS. Please, take also into consideration that in my last PBEMs I have played with the HR of "max 500 embarked a/c per-hex" and therefore the carrier clashes have been way more complex and on a much larger geographical scale than usual.

Have often thought of a HR like this one. How has it worked for you?

RE: Japanese Shipbuilding Priorities

Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:35 pm
by Chickenboy
ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus
PS. Please, take also into consideration that in my last PBEMs I have played with the HR of "max 500 embarked a/c per-hex" and therefore the carrier clashes have been way more complex and on a much larger geographical scale than usual.

Ah. I see. Nah. That sort of HR-intended to hobble Allied 'Death Star' formations in the game is not for me. My comments regarding ship building and carrier warfare in the game was without that atypical and hobbling HR. YMMV.

RE: Japanese Shipbuilding Priorities

Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:41 pm
by RangerJoe
ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus
PS. Please, take also into consideration that in my last PBEMs I have played with the HR of "max 500 embarked a/c per-hex" and therefore the carrier clashes have been way more complex and on a much larger geographical scale than usual.

Ah. I see. Nah. That sort of HR-intended to hobble Allied 'Death Star' formations in the game is not for me. My comments regarding ship building and carrier warfare in the game was without that atypical and hobbling HR. YMMV.

Just put some minefields in the open ocean in front of the DS. Once one task force hits a minefield, the rest should avoid that hex. That breaks up the DS.

RE: Japanese Shipbuilding Priorities

Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:28 am
by ITAKLinus
ORIGINAL: John 3rd

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

You're right, I should have stated that it doesn't include all the CVEs arriving before '44 to the allied side.

It's a grand total of 22 CVEs for 575 embarked a/c until the end of 1943.


I did the above tables taking into consideration the balance for a defensive maneuvre battle, in which I am likely to bring into action my full firepower, while the allies are unlikely to bring CVEs as well.

It has been done more to represent the not so huge delta between allies and Japan even into '44 when we take into consideration sheer numbers only.

To be fair, I don't find it changes much. Especially if you consider that in 1942 you get "only" 8 CVEs with 221 embarked a/c.
The big change happens after mid-43 and, even more, after mid-44


And... Hosho is amazing! It has 25knts of top speed: enough to stay with KB2!


PS. Please, take also into consideration that in my last PBEMs I have played with the HR of "max 500 embarked a/c per-hex" and therefore the carrier clashes have been way more complex and on a much larger geographical scale than usual.

Have often thought of a HR like this one. How has it worked for you?



I would say that until 1944 it works very well. After 1944 kicks in, I suggest increasing to max 700 embarked a/c per-hex.


It's obviously a pro-jap HR, but not as much as it might seem: indeed, an Allied player who is able to adapt to that can have very good results.

It requires a major switch in Allies' mentality from "making the big blob" to "manoeuvre battle".
In line of principle, I have seen that the HR doesn't change much unless the Allied player sticks with the idea of just putting every single ship he has in one hex. In that case, he's quite f@cked up.

In general, this HR produces much more complex battles in a much wider scope than usual. Engagements are quite brutal and die rolls play a big role. Basically, positioning is very important and battles are fought no longer in one hex vs one hex, but rather in "areas".

For example: an Allied approach to Mariannas has been done through several minor preparatory operations and then a sort of "sweep" embracing the whole area, instead of the usual "big fleet crawling to the landing point under 1,000,000 fighter cover".
Also, carrier clashes are more frequent but less decisive unless it's a major operation (such as the Mariannas mentioned above). If it's a major operations, they become really really bloody.


I find the HR quite interesting because it pushes away the general principle of "1,000 ships in one hex with billions of a/c in CAP", rewarding a more dynamic gameplay for both.
Also, take into consideration that Jap AirTFs are under the same limitation and, ceteribus paribus, they are weaker: a/c are generally worse, CVs themselves are squishy and AAA isn't great either. So, the game becomes much more complex for the Japanese player as well.



I'd say that the game is much much more dynamic and complex with this HR, carrier battles are a matter of positioning more than anything else and that an allied player who is able to grasp the consequences of the HR and leverage them is in advantage, otherwise the Japanese player has a net gain.


NOTE: I do play both sides and I propose this HR also when I'm the evil Allies. So, I have a grasp of it from the other side of the barricade as well, even though I haven't gone far enough in the game with the Allies to have a definitive opinion on the topic.

RE: Japanese Shipbuilding Priorities

Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:39 am
by ITAKLinus
ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus
PS. Please, take also into consideration that in my last PBEMs I have played with the HR of "max 500 embarked a/c per-hex" and therefore the carrier clashes have been way more complex and on a much larger geographical scale than usual.

Ah. I see. Nah. That sort of HR-intended to hobble Allied 'Death Star' formations in the game is not for me. My comments regarding ship building and carrier warfare in the game was without that atypical and hobbling HR. YMMV.



Allied DS doesn't include, from my perspective, CVEs. Meaning that it's quite unlikely that you have CVEs mixed with DS in operations other than big landings.

I haven't included them because of that. The mentioned HR just changes the situation for landings, where CVEs and DS aren't mixed as it usually is.



The logic of my scheme is quite simple: to get an idea of the relative balance of numbers and power all along the 1942/1943. It's not intended to show anything else than that. Sheer numbers only.

If it would have been intended for a more complex analysis I would have had to put a rough estimation of pilots quality and plane quality, in addition, of course, to the relative quality of the mentioned ships.



It's incidental that I made it for games in which I have that HR.



To be honest, I don't see how an allied player, a part from landings, can be interested in using ALL his flat-tops in a single hex during relatively deep sorties. Also, even if he does that, I can refuse the engagement. Unless he does that constantly, and that's, at least, weird, I should be able to spot a moment in which I can engage his DS without CVEs.

RE: Japanese Shipbuilding Priorities

Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:57 pm
by rustysi
8. A CV is a CV, expensive or not.



Just a bit more...

I turn off both Yamato BB's at start. Will complete them a bit later. This allows me to accelerate those 6 '61' build rate CV for what is essentially nothing. Its '61 x 2', but since you get them a day early for each 61 nsy points you spend you 'get your money' back, so to speak.