Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Dinglir
The turn number is five, and the fronts at this stage should be VERY fluid, often forcing the movement of Soviet Air bases. Further, the Soviets supply system has not been built up yet (with trucks added every turn), so I think the opposing airbases are probably fatigued from moving aorund a lot.

Try bombing bases with the same amount of aircraft come turn 50 and you will find that the effects have largely worn off.

Got it. Will just have to keep an eye on the situation [:)][:)]

Speaking of FlaK, I have been stacking forward airbases with 1-2 Luftflottes with 3-6 Flak units (Luftflotte because they return the FlaK to army group the next turn for further distribution). Is this suitable/appropriate for defense? I haven't gotten bombed yet and would like to know beforehand.

@Dinglir:
Try bombing bases with the same amount of aircraft come turn 50 and you will find that the effects have largely worn off.

No need to wait until turn 50 for the effects to wear off. By turn 4-5 if the Soviet player is organised and determined, it already will be very dangerous for the LW. And before that, the Soviet can easily keep his best airgroups out of your reach. It always depends on how your opponent play. At least, that was true in 1.11.03, I still have to experiment that in 1.12.xx

Alright, next rounds of updates based on the discussions and references is done. I restructured things to divide it into various sections as mentioned. Feedback strongly encouraged!

For what it is worth Yak 1 appears to be the best Soviet fighter, IL2, SU, and BS are the tactical bomber choices, bis is useless along with FB missioned/trained as bomber. Hurricanes do ok. PE = pissing 'elpless.

If bombing ground units choose those in Clear terrain for better results.

ORIGINAL: 56ajax
FB missioned/trained as bomber.

Those airgroups can easily be swapped to a tac/dive bomber (although I think not swapped back to FB) - so at least easy to deal with those on the Soviet side.

Very good work eskuche! and lots of good points that can easily add up fast. I will definitely use it as a reminder list.

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

ORIGINAL: 56ajax
FB missioned/trained as bomber.

Those airgroups can easily be swapped to a tac/dive bomber (although I think not swapped back to FB) - so at least easy to deal with those on the Soviet side.

Sure is. I tried using a modern FB in those squadrons but the results were poor so I change them to IL2 and they get renamed to SHAP. If you populate them with those U2/ whatsits then they name change to NBAPs and there is no upgrade path.

@redrum68 could you do with a mention of air doctrine. It is the most abstract and as a result most opaque part of the airwar. Many for instance thing putting 300% in airdoctrine means more when in fact it means less. Perhaps this reference and the thread around it might help?

fb.asp?m=4702001

@redrum68 could you do with a mention of air doctrine. It is the most abstract and as a result most opaque part of the airwar. Many for instance thing putting 300% in airdoctrine means more when in fact it means less. Perhaps this reference and the thread around it might help?

fb.asp?m=4702001

Can't seem to see the picture for this post.

On another topic, and suggestions for the air war during mud/snow/blizzard. Am guessing the supply rule changes might lean towards Axis sending most of the Luftwaffe to the Reserve ?

@Telemecus - Yes please! I've made another round of updates and pulled lots of great information from that thread around both air doctrines and NR. But as tyronec mentioned, I can't see the picture so could you list out which settings you referred to?

@tyronec how airgroup supply works now is quite opaque. My gut feeling is that ammo and fuel are unlimited, but air support/airbase resupply depend on distance to railhead still and can get hit by all the regular supply penalties.

ORIGINAL: redrum68
@Telemecus - Yes please! I've made another round of updates and pulled lots of great information from that thread around both air doctrines and NR. But as tyronec mentioned, I can't see the picture so could you list out which settings you referred to?

@redrum68 @tyronec see fb.asp?m=4785007 now

Would Dinglir's AAR against Pelton be a good reference for use of the U2VS?

Also staging bases are an important thing that has not been mentioned

@eskuche - Yeah, it would be great to get some clarifications on how air group supply works now. That section is currently empty

@Telemecus - Thanks. Updated.

Updated to include air type and usage for both Axis and Soviet primarily based on Dinglir's reference.

@Dinglir, could you please elaborate on your observation that airbases that have been in place longer will be less susceptible to bombing? Simply less fatigue on their organic AA or because less fatigued air support is able to repair more planes?

Does anyone know exactly how fatigue works on air groups? Is there a certain threshold where you shouldn't fly any more missions? Seems like I see mentions of around 30-40 fatigue but not really sure what that is based on?

ORIGINAL: eskuche

@Dinglir, could you please elaborate on your observation that airbases that have been in place longer will be less susceptible to bombing? Simply less fatigue on their organic AA or because less fatigued air support is able to repair more planes?

It is an observation, I have made - I have yet to see a clear answer as to why it happens.

On turn two onwards playing the Axis, you should experience that your Airfield Bombing gets less and less effective. This appear not to have much to do with the fatigue levels of the aircraft themselves as bombing at the end of turn (after you have flown a myriad of other combat missions) has little impact over bombing at the beginning of turn.

Because of this, I assume it has to do with the Air Support available at the Airfield itself. I have noticed, that bombing airfields that were overrun on the previous turn and/or has moved around a lot, seem to be more effective than bombing a stationary airfield unit. My assumption is that the fatigue levels of the airfield support plays in on the attacks, but I do not know for sure.

Interesting, thanks. I suspect it's either 1) simply more, less-fatigued fighters defending airfields or 2) a hidden modifier for the VVS that ticks up 20% + 5% or so a turn. I've read somewhere that there are inefficiencies hard-coded till 1942 but I doubt anyone with access to the code would confirm this part of the black box.

ORIGINAL: redrum68

Does anyone know exactly how fatigue works on air groups? Is there a certain threshold where you shouldn't fly any more missions? Seems like I see mentions of around 30-40 fatigue but not really sure what that is based on?

As the Air Group fatigue levels go up, their effectiveness in combat becomes less and they start to take heavier losses.

Some, like myself, like to translate this into a fatigue number that calls for a halt to Air Group actions for the turn.

What that number should be is the tricky part. It is highly dependant on the situation. If you set it to low, you will have a lot on unused potential in your Air Groups. If you set it to high, you risk losing a lot of aircraft, airgroup morale etc without having anything to show for it. Once you get really good, you should probably start having different numbers for different air groups.

Also remember that air group fatigue is lessened during your own logistics phase (based on supplies in the airfield), so you should always let your max air Group fatigue be dependant on the mileage you expect to fly in the enemy turn.