Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:44 am**

It always struck me as odd that the Rs were built in the first place. The QEs were the best BBs of their time and should likely have just been replicated instead of doing the Rs. That said the Brits were all over the place with naval design at the time. BCs as ships of the line was pretty much put to rest at Jutland but still got Repulse, Renown and Hood. Which didn't end well for 2 of the three once WW2 rolled around. And then the oddly designed Courageous class, which ended up being converted to carriers, which made them useful.

And then in WW2 tank design in the UK was all over the place. Too many designs and dispersion of resources. But perhaps there was just a desire for diversity and change (like my wife [8|]).

IIRC Churchill had made a pitch to take some turrets off the Rs to lighten them / decrease their draft so that they could sail into the Baltic. The guy was a great war leader but he came up with some 'out there' ideas at times. [X(]

Posted: **Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:14 pm**

ORIGINAL: fcooke

It always struck me as odd that the Rs were built in the first place. The QEs were the best BBs of their time and should likely have just been replicated instead of doing the Rs. That said the Brits were all over the place with naval design at the time. BCs as ships of the line was pretty much put to rest at Jutland but still got Repulse, Renown and Hood. Which didn't end well for 2 of the three once WW2 rolled around. And then the oddly designed Courageous class, which ended up being converted to carriers, which made them useful.

And then in WW2 tank design in the UK was all over the place. Too many designs and dispersion of resources. But perhaps there was just a desire for diversity and change (like my wife [8|]).

IIRC Churchill had made a pitch to take some turrets off the Rs to lighten them / decrease their draft so that they could sail into the Baltic. The guy was a great war leader but he came up with some 'out there' ideas at times. [X(]

It was a cost saving measure build the R class that way.

The only people who like fairly constant change, cry if they don't get it, are happier when it comes, are babies. It sounds like you are not one of those . . . [;)]

Posted: **Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:36 pm**

I just checked in Rene Greger's book about R class rebuilds. Ironically, the only one that got a full reconstruction in the 30s (34-36) was the Royal Oak... which was sunk in port on 14 October 1939 as mentioned by Ranger Joe above. None had their main battery mountings modernised to allow higher elevation, which added to modern ammunition would have increased their range ( from the original 24,423 yards).

Posted: **Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:22 pm**

Almost sounds like 400 years of tradition unhampered by change. 'Twould have been better to repeat the QE's with 4 ships with more powerful engines instead of 5 with slower.

Posted: **Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:33 pm**

ORIGINAL: RevRick

Almost sounds like 400 years of tradition unhampered by change. 'Twould have been better to repeat the QE's with 4 ships with more powerful engines instead of 5 with slower.

As someone already posted - it was price that caused the switch to a more economical platform. The price of the QE class vessels shocked the government and although it wanted more ships with 15" guns, it did not want to pay for the speed and range of the QEs. The RN only needed BBs for North Sea duty at that point, and the main purpose was to bottle up the High Seas fleet, not chase it down. Hence the decision to build five "R" class rather than fewer QE's.

BTW, only four QEs were ordered by the Admiralty, but the rulers of Malaya bought a fifth one as a gift to Britain (in return for Britain guaranteeing their rule, no doubt). Try and guess which QE was bought by those SEA rulers... [:D]

Posted: **Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:20 pm**

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: RevRick

Almost sounds like 400 years of tradition unhampered by change. 'Twould have been better to repeat the QE's with 4 ships with more powerful engines instead of 5 with slower.
As someone already posted - it was price that caused the switch to a more economical platform. The price of the QE class vessels shocked the government and although it wanted more ships with 15" guns, it did not want to pay for the speed and range of the QEs. The RN only needed BBs for North Sea duty at that point, and the main purpose was to bottle up the High Seas fleet, not chase it down. Hence the decision to build five "R" class rather than fewer QE's.

BTW, only four QEs were ordered by the Admiralty, but the rulers of Malaya bought a fifth one as a gift to Britain (in return for Britain guaranteeing their rule, no doubt). Try and guess which QE was bought by those SEA rulers... [:D]

Ummmm, Warspite was bought by those Malay Pirates? WOW! [X(]

Posted: **Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:42 pm**

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: RevRick

Almost sounds like 400 years of tradition unhampered by change. 'Twould have been better to repeat the QE's with 4 ships with more powerful engines instead of 5 with slower.
As someone already posted - it was price that caused the switch to a more economical platform. The price of the QE class vessels shocked the government and although it wanted more ships with 15" guns, it did not want to pay for the speed and range of the QEs. The RN only needed BBs for North Sea duty at that point, and the main purpose was to bottle up the High Seas fleet, not chase it down. Hence the decision to build five "R" class rather than fewer QE's.

BTW, only four QEs were ordered by the Admiralty, but the rulers of Malaya bought a fifth one as a gift to Britain (in return for Britain guaranteeing their rule, no doubt). Try and guess which QE was bought by those SEA rulers... [:D]

Ummmm, Warspite was bought by those Malay Pirates? WOW! [X(]

Uh-oh! Now you are going to face the wrath of a certain forumite who loves his Grand Old Lady ... [;)]

Posted: **Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:18 am**

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy.

BTW, only four QEs were ordered by the Admiralty, but the rulers of Malaya bought a fifth one as a gift to Britain (in return for Britain guaranteeing their rule, no doubt). Try and guess which QE was bought by those SEA rulers... [:D]

I have seen it suggested that a sixth QE was projected - Agincourt, a name used for a Brazilian ordered
BB, Rio de Janeiro, purchased by Turkey in December 1913, and originally christened Sultan Osman I, taken over by the RN in August 1914.

Greger says the QE Agincourt was authorised in the 1914 budget, but was cancelled at the end of August 1914.

Posted: **Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:57 pm**

ORIGINAL: Ian R

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy.

BTW, only four QEs were ordered by the Admiralty, but the rulers of Malaya bought a fifth one as a gift to Britain (in return for Britain guaranteeing their rule, no doubt). Try and guess which QE was bought by those SEA rulers... [:D]

I have seen it suggested that a sixth QE was projected - Agincourt, a name used for a Brazilian ordered
BB, Rio de Janeiro, purchased by Turkey in December 1913, and originally christened Sultan Osman I, taken over by the RN in August 1914.

Greger says the QE Agincourt was authorised in the 1914 budget, but was cancelled at the end of August 1914.

The RN did take over the Rio de Janeiro build and finished it as Agincourt, so that was one unexpected addition to the fleet. Agincourt had the most major caliber guns ever put on a warship - 14X 14" guns IIRC. She probably could not fire them all simultaneously without breaking something! I also think she would blow up easily if anything penetrated her armour which would not have been strong (because so much weight had been devoted to guns and ammo).

Posted: **Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:07 pm**

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: Ian R

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy.

BTW, only four QEs were ordered by the Admiralty, but the rulers of Malaya bought a fifth one as a gift to Britain (in return for Britain guaranteeing their rule, no doubt). Try and guess which QE was bought by those SEA rulers... [:D]

I have seen it suggested that a sixth QE was projected - Agincourt, a name used for a Brazilian ordered
BB, Rio de Janeiro, purchased by Turkey in December 1913, and originally christened Sultan Osman I, taken over by the RN in August 1914.

Greger says the QE Agincourt was authorised in the 1914 budget, but was cancelled at the end of August 1914.

The RN did take over the Rio de Janeiro build and finished it as Agincourt, so that was one unexpected addition to the fleet. Agincourt had the most major caliber guns ever put on a warship - 14X 14" guns IIRC. She probably could not fire them all simultaneously without breaking something! I also think she would blow up easily if anything penetrated her armour which would not have been strong (because so much weight had been devoted to guns and ammo).

14 x 12" - in 7 centre-line turrets. AB, PQ, WXY. W faced forward and was deck level; B & X were raised and superfiring. The ship was not flush decked.

Belt was 229mm, deck 114mm max, main turrets and CT 305mm. The QEs and "R's had thicker belts, but a bit less deck armour (330, and 89mm).

Posted: **Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:12 pm**

ORIGINAL: Ian R

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: Ian R

I have seen it suggested that a sixth QE was projected - Agincourt, a name used for a Brazilian ordered
BB, Rio de Janeiro, purchased by Turkey in December 1913, and originally christened Sultan Osman I, taken over by the RN in August 1914.

Greger says the QE Agincourt was authorised in the 1914 budget, but was cancelled at the end of August 1914.

The RN did take over the Rio de Janeiro build and finished it as Agincourt, so that was one unexpected addition to the fleet. Agincourt had the most major caliber guns ever put on a warship - 14X 14" guns IIRC. She probably could not fire them all simultaneously without breaking something! I also think she would blow up easily if anything penetrated her armour which would not have been strong (because so much weight had been devoted to guns and ammo).

14 x 12" - in 7 centre-line turrets. AB, PQ, WXY. W faced forward and was deck level; B & X were raised and superfiring. The ship was not flush decked.

Belt was 229mm, deck 114mm max, main turrets and CT 305mm. The QEs and "R's had thicker belts, but a bit less deck armour (330, and 89mm).

That ship would be great for shore bombardments! [X(]

Posted: **Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:43 pm**

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Ian R

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

The RN did take over the Rio de Janeiro build and finished it as Agincourt, so that was one unexpected addition to the fleet. Agincourt had the most major caliber guns ever put on a warship - 14X 14" guns IIRC. She probably could not fire them all simultaneously without breaking something! I also think she would blow up easily if anything penetrated her armour which would not have been strong (because so much weight had been devoted to guns and ammo).

14 x 12" - in 7 centre-line turrets. AB, PQ, WXY. W faced forward and was deck level; B & X were raised and superfiring. The ship was not flush decked.

Belt was 229mm, deck 114mm max, main turrets and CT 305mm. The QEs and "R's had thicker belts, but a bit less deck armour (330, and 89mm).

That ship would be great for shore bombardments! [X(]

Thanks for the correction on the caliber of the guns RJ!
IIRC, Wyoming and Arkansas were a similar design without the "W" turret.

Posted: **Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:36 am**

Interesting thread, especially to see everyones' ideas.

As is usual, I find I think M-M makes a lot of sense. I don't know where this idea of using the slower BBs as convoy protection comes from, they can't protect against subs, and at night an IJN heavy cruiser or even a destroyer squadron is a very good matchup against them.

They are very useful ships to be treasured and used, but they are not always useful. [;)]

I could point out that from the Japanese side the Yamato could be described in much the same manner. But once you figure out how to use them, they become almost magical.

Check out Jorge's AAR to see a real nice usage of the slow American battleships in 1942 no less.[&o]

Posted: **Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:48 am**

Thanks, can you point to which occasion? [:D][:'(]

They American are relatively good AA platforms and they can be used successfully in echelon attacks, with multiple TFs

Posted: **Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:26 am**

The "Rs" in action [:)]

they were like angry ninjas mauling poor Mutsu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Makassar at 64,105, Range 11,000 Yards

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
E13A1 Jake: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu, Shell hits 15, and is sunk
DD Onami
DD Kuroshio, Shell hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Hayashio
DD Amatsukaze, Shell hits 5, heavy fires
DD Asashio, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Kasumi
DD Shiratsuyu
DD Kamikaze
DD Asakaze, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Hatakaze, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
DD Yanagi, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Allied Ships
BB Revenge, Shell hits 1
BB Resolution, Shell hits 6, on fire
CA Frobisher
CL Mauritius, Shell hits 2
CL Birmingham
CL Phoenix, Shell hits 1
DD Stuart
DD Arunta
DD Warramunga
DD Nepal, Shell hits 1
DD Nestor
DD Napier, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Tjerk Hiddes, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Van Galen

Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 60% moonlight: 11,000 yards
Range closes to 23,000 yards...
Range closes to 17,000 yards...
Range closes to 11,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 11,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 11,000 yards
BB Mutsu engages BB Revenge at 11,000 yards
DD Yanagi sunk by DD Napier at 11,000 yards
DD Napier engages DD Hatakaze at 11,000 yards
CL Phoenix engages DD Hatakaze at 11,000 yards
CL Birmingham engages DD Hatakaze at 11,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Tjerk Hiddes at 11,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Napier at 11,000 yards
DD Hayashio engages DD Napier at 11,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Nepal at 11,000 yards
DD Onami engages DD Warramunga at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 5,000 yards
BB Mutsu engages BB Resolution at 5,000 yards
BB Revenge engages DD Kuroshio at 5,000 yards
DD Warramunga engages DD Asakaze at 5,000 yards
CL Phoenix engages DD Asakaze at 5,000 yards
BB Mutsu engages CL Birmingham at 5,000 yards
BB Mutsu engages CL Mauritius at 5,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Warramunga at 5,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Napier at 5,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Nestor at 5,000 yards
DD Napier engages DD Onami at 5,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Warramunga at 5,000 yards
DD Arunta engages DD Hatakaze at 5,000 yards
DD Stuart engages DD Kuroshio at 5,000 yards
BB Resolution engages BB Mutsu at 5,000 yards
DD Hatakaze sunk by BB Revenge at 5,000 yards
CA Frobisher engages DD Onami at 5,000 yards
DD Kamikaze engages DD Tjerk Hiddes at 5,000 yards
DD Shiratsuyu engages DD Napier at 5,000 yards
CL Mauritius engages DD Asashio at 5,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Tjerk Hiddes at 5,000 yards
DD Napier engages DD Kuroshio at 5,000 yards
DD Nestor engages DD Onami at 5,000 yards
DD Nepal engages DD Onami at 5,000 yards
DD Shiratsuyu engages DD Stuart at 5,000 yards
Range closes to 4,000 yards
BB Resolution engages DD Hayashio at 4,000 yards
DD Warramunga engages DD Asakaze at 4,000 yards
DD Kamikaze engages DD Tjerk Hiddes at 4,000 yards
CL Phoenix engages DD Kuroshio at 4,000 yards
DD Nepal engages DD Kasumi at 4,000 yards
CL Mauritius engages DD Kuroshio at 4,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Warramunga at 4,000 yards
DD Hayashio engages DD Nepal at 4,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Stuart at 4,000 yards
DD Nestor engages DD Kuroshio at 4,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Warramunga at 4,000 yards
DD Arunta engages DD Kuroshio at 4,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Stuart at 4,000 yards
Range increases to 8,000 yards
BB Mutsu engages BB Resolution at 8,000 yards
DD Asakaze engages DD Tjerk Hiddes at 8,000 yards
CA Frobisher engages DD Asakaze at 8,000 yards
CL Phoenix engages DD Asakaze at 8,000 yards
CL Birmingham engages DD Shiratsuyu at 8,000 yards
CL Mauritius engages DD Kuroshio at 8,000 yards
DD Van Galen engages DD Kamikaze at 8,000 yards
DD Tjerk Hiddes engages DD Asakaze at 8,000 yards
DD Napier engages DD Kuroshio at 8,000 yards
DD Napier engages DD Onami at 8,000 yards
DD Asakaze engages DD Nepal at 8,000 yards
DD Warramunga engages DD Asakaze at 8,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Arunta at 8,000 yards
Range increases to 11,000 yards
BB Mutsu engages BB Revenge at 11,000 yards
BB Revenge engages DD Asakaze at 11,000 yards
CA Frobisher engages DD Kamikaze at 11,000 yards
DD Shiratsuyu engages DD Napier at 11,000 yards
BB Mutsu engages CL Birmingham at 11,000 yards
CL Mauritius engages DD Asashio at 11,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Van Galen at 11,000 yards
DD Hayashio engages DD Tjerk Hiddes at 11,000 yards
DD Napier engages DD Kuroshio at 11,000 yards
DD Nestor engages DD Kuroshio at 11,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Warramunga at 11,000 yards
DD Asakaze engages DD Arunta at 11,000 yards
DD Stuart engages DD Kamikaze at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards
BB Mutsu engages BB Revenge at 10,000 yards
CA Frobisher engages DD Kamikaze at 10,000 yards
CL Phoenix engages DD Kuroshio at 10,000 yards
DD Tjerk Hiddes engages DD Kasumi at 10,000 yards
CL Mauritius engages DD Kuroshio at 10,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Van Galen at 10,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Tjerk Hiddes at 10,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Tjerk Hiddes at 10,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Nepal at 10,000 yards
DD Hayashio engages DD Warramunga at 10,000 yards
DD Shiratsuyu engages DD Stuart at 10,000 yards
Range closes to 9,000 yards
BB Mutsu engages BB Resolution at 9,000 yards
BB Revenge engages BB Mutsu at 9,000 yards
CA Frobisher engages DD Kuroshio at 9,000 yards
CL Phoenix engages DD Kuroshio at 9,000 yards
DD Kasumi engages DD Arunta at 9,000 yards
DD Arunta engages DD Asashio at 9,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Van Galen at 9,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Tjerk Hiddes at 9,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Napier at 9,000 yards
DD Onami engages DD Stuart at 9,000 yards
DD Kasumi engages DD Nepal at 9,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Stuart at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 10,000 yards
BB Mutsu sunk by BB Revenge at 10,000 yards
DD Asakaze engages DD Napier at 10,000 yards
CA Frobisher engages DD Kuroshio at 10,000 yards
CL Birmingham engages DD Onami at 10,000 yards
CL Mauritius engages DD Asashio at 10,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Nepal at 10,000 yards
DD Nepal engages DD Hayashio at 10,000 yards
DD Napier engages DD Kuroshio at 10,000 yards
DD Onami engages DD Stuart at 10,000 yards
Range increases to 12,000 yards
BB Resolution engages DD Amatsukaze at 12,000 yards
BB Revenge engages DD Amatsukaze at 12,000 yards
DD Shiratsuyu engages DD Tjerk Hiddes at 12,000 yards
CL Phoenix engages DD Amatsukaze at 12,000 yards
CL Birmingham engages DD Amatsukaze at 12,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Nepal at 12,000 yards
DD Hayashio engages DD Napier at 12,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Warramunga at 12,000 yards
DD Onami engages DD Napier at 12,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Nestor at 12,000 yards
Tanaka, Raizo orders Japanese TF to disengage
Range closes to 9,000 yards
DD Asakaze engages DD Tjerk Hiddes at 9,000 yards
BB Revenge engages DD Kamikaze at 9,000 yards
CA Frobisher engages DD Shiratsuyu at 9,000 yards
DD Kasumi engages DD Nepal at 9,000 yards
CL Birmingham engages DD Asashio at 9,000 yards
CL Mauritius engages DD Amatsukaze at 9,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Van Galen at 9,000 yards
DD Tjerk Hiddes engages DD Kuroshio at 9,000 yards
DD Stuart engages DD Onami at 9,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Nestor at 9,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Warramunga at 9,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Arunta at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 13,000 yards
BB Resolution engages DD Amatsukaze at 13,000 yards
BB Revenge engages DD Amatsukaze at 13,000 yards
DD Arunta engages DD Shiratsuyu at 13,000 yards
CL Phoenix engages DD Kasumi at 13,000 yards
CL Birmingham engages DD Amatsukaze at 13,000 yards
CL Mauritius engages DD Amatsukaze at 13,000 yards
DD Van Galen engages DD Onami at 13,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Tjerk Hiddes at 13,000 yards
DD Shiratsuyu engages DD Nepal at 13,000 yards
DD Warramunga engages DD Amatsukaze at 13,000 yards
DD Arunta engages DD Kuroshio at 13,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Stuart at 13,000 yards
Task forces break off...

Posted: **Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:27 am**

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

The "Rs" in action [:)]

they were like angry ninjas mauling poor Mutsu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Makassar at 64,105, Range 11,000 Yards

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
E13A1 Jake: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu, Shell hits 15, and is sunk
DD Onami
DD Kuroshio, Shell hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Hayashio
DD Amatsukaze, Shell hits 5, heavy fires
DD Asashio, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Kasumi
DD Shiratsuyu
DD Kamikaze
DD Asakaze, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Hatakaze, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
DD Yanagi, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Allied Ships
BB Revenge, Shell hits 1
BB Resolution, Shell hits 6, on fire
CA Frobisher
CL Mauritius, Shell hits 2
CL Birmingham
CL Phoenix, Shell hits 1
DD Stuart
DD Arunta
DD Warramunga
DD Nepal, Shell hits 1
DD Nestor
DD Napier, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Tjerk Hiddes, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Van Galen

Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 60% moonlight: 11,000 yards
Range closes to 23,000 yards...
Range closes to 17,000 yards...
Range closes to 11,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 11,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 11,000 yards
BB Mutsu engages BB Revenge at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 5,000 yards
BB Mutsu engages BB Resolution at 5,000 yards

I also love the R’s, and I don’t find your results really surprising, it’s a two-vs-one engagement, with more support on the side of the two.
I don’t know the date of the battle, but as you have those two R’s, I’d guess none of the IJN DD have a radar, and given Birmingham’s participation, it’s ‘43*, so fighting performance of the Allies doesn’t suffer as much as in the first few months. Plus, all those radar sets on the Allies side improve the starting DL of the Japanese ships...
Moreover, Nagato-class have a weak belt armor (compared to most other BB classes), the fight basically starts at point-blank range, and the R’s 15in main guns have a better penetration rating than Mutsu’s 40cm... By comparison, the R’s weakness in deck armor is negated by the close range of the engagement.
And on the supporting cruisers, while Frobisher is not great, you still had a Fiji-class, a Southampton-class and a Brooklyn-class, or three of the four best light cruiser classes. They might not be able to penetrate Mutsu’s armor, but it still amounts to more fires, and they can make short work of any DD.

EDIT : * or maybe early in late summer or fall ‘42, as I’ve just checked Birmingham’s arrival, and it’s July ‘42 in Cape Town.

Posted: **Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:39 am**

It's end of January 1943.

The same day showed that Royal Navy is ruler of the seas... Few direct hits from another British BB ended life of Yamato. I wonder if there was some kind trophy for killing Bismarck and Yamato

Night Time Surface Combat, near Makassar at 65,105, Range 8,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu, Shell hits 2
BB Yamato, Shell hits 30, heavy fires
DD Onami
DD Kuroshio
DD Hayashio
DD Amatsukaze
DD Asashio
DD Kasumi
DD Shiratsuyu
DD Kamikaze
DD Asakaze
DD Hatakaze
DD Nokaze, Shell hits 1
DD Yanagi

Allied Ships
BB North Carolina
BB South Dakota, Shell hits 8, on fire
BB Prince of Wales, Shell hits 2
CA Indianapolis
CA Chester, Shell hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
CA Pensacola
CA Salt Lake City
CA New Orleans, Shell hits 1
CA Astoria
CA San Francisco, Shell hits 2
CA Vincennes, Shell hits 1
CA Dorsetshire
DD Buchanan
DD Barton
DD Woodworth
DD Caldwell
DD Frazier, Shell hits 1
DD Gansevoort, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Meade, Shell hits 1
DD O'Brien
DD Walke
DD Morris
DD Dunlap, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Case, Shell hits 1
DD Cushing

Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 60% moonlight: 11,000 yards
Range closes to 23,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 23,000 yards
Range closes to 17,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 17,000 yards
Range closes to 11,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 8,000 yards
BB Yamato engages BB Prince of Wales at 8,000 yards
BB South Dakota engages BB Mutsu at 8,000 yards
BB North Carolina engages BB Yamato at 8,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages CA Dorsetshire at 8,000 yards
DD Hatakaze engages BB South Dakota at 8,000 yards
BB Yamato engages CA San Francisco at 8,000 yards
DD Kamikaze engages BB South Dakota at 8,000 yards
BB Yamato engages CA Salt Lake City at 8,000 yards
DD Asashio engages BB South Dakota at 8,000 yards
BB Yamato engages CA Chester at 8,000 yards
BB South Dakota engages DD Hayashio at 8,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages DD Kuroshio at 8,000 yards
DD Case engages DD Hayashio at 8,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Dunlap at 8,000 yards
DD Hayashio engages DD O'Brien at 8,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Meade at 8,000 yards
DD Hatakaze engages DD Gansevoort at 8,000 yards
DD Frazier engages DD Kamikaze at 8,000 yards
DD Caldwell engages DD Kamikaze at 8,000 yards
Range closes to 7,000 yards
BB Yamato engages BB Prince of Wales at 7,000 yards
BB Mutsu engages BB Prince of Wales at 7,000 yards
DD Yanagi engages DD Frazier at 7,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Meade at 7,000 yards
BB Yamato engages CA Vincennes at 7,000 yards
DD Asakaze engages DD Dunlap at 7,000 yards
DD Dunlap engages DD Kamikaze at 7,000 yards
BB Yamato engages CA New Orleans at 7,000 yards
BB Yamato engages CA Salt Lake City at 7,000 yards
DD Gansevoort engages DD Asashio at 7,000 yards
BB Yamato engages CA Chester at 7,000 yards
CA Indianapolis engages DD Hayashio at 7,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD O'Brien at 7,000 yards
DD Case engages DD Nokaze at 7,000 yards
DD Dunlap engages DD Hatakaze at 7,000 yards
DD Yanagi engages DD Meade at 7,000 yards
Range increases to 9,000 yards
BB Yamato engages BB South Dakota at 9,000 yards
BB South Dakota engages BB Mutsu at 9,000 yards
DD Yanagi engages DD Gansevoort at 9,000 yards
BB Yamato engages CA Dorsetshire at 9,000 yards
BB Yamato engages CA Vincennes at 9,000 yards
DD Asakaze engages DD Meade at 9,000 yards
DD Shiratsuyu engages DD Dunlap at 9,000 yards
DD Kasumi engages DD Dunlap at 9,000 yards
DD Gansevoort engages DD Asashio at 9,000 yards
BB Yamato engages CA Chester at 9,000 yards
DD Hayashio engages DD O'Brien at 9,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Cushing at 9,000 yards
DD Case engages DD Onami at 9,000 yards
DD Asakaze engages DD Walke at 9,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Buchanan at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 11,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages BB Yamato at 11,000 yards
BB Mutsu engages BB South Dakota at 11,000 yards
DD Yanagi engages DD Dunlap at 11,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Dunlap at 11,000 yards
BB Yamato engages CA Vincennes at 11,000 yards
BB Yamato engages CA San Francisco at 11,000 yards
CA Astoria engages DD Kamikaze at 11,000 yards
CA New Orleans engages DD Shiratsuyu at 11,000 yards
DD Kasumi engages DD Frazier at 11,000 yards
BB Yamato engages CA Pensacola at 11,000 yards
BB Yamato engages CA Chester at 11,000 yards
BB Yamato engages CA Indianapolis at 11,000 yards
DD Hatakaze engages DD Case at 11,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Morris at 11,000 yards
DD Shiratsuyu engages DD Gansevoort at 11,000 yards
DD Asakaze engages DD Frazier at 11,000 yards
Range increases to 12,000 yards
BB Yamato engages BB South Dakota at 12,000 yards
BB Mutsu engages BB South Dakota at 12,000 yards
DD Dunlap engages DD Yanagi at 12,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Cushing at 12,000 yards
DD Hatakaze engages DD Gansevoort at 12,000 yards
CA San Francisco engages DD Asakaze at 12,000 yards
BB Yamato engages CA Astoria at 12,000 yards
BB Yamato engages CA New Orleans at 12,000 yards
DD Frazier engages DD Kasumi at 12,000 yards
BB Yamato engages CA Pensacola at 12,000 yards
BB Yamato engages CA Chester at 12,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Cushing at 12,000 yards
DD Onami engages DD Frazier at 12,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Meade at 12,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages BB Yamato at 12,000 yards
BB Yamato engages BB South Dakota at 12,000 yards
BB Yamato engages BB North Carolina at 12,000 yards
CA Dorsetshire engages DD Hatakaze at 12,000 yards
DD O'Brien engages DD Hatakaze at 12,000 yards
BB Yamato engages CA San Francisco at 12,000 yards
BB Yamato engages CA Astoria at 12,000 yards
CA New Orleans engages DD Shiratsuyu at 12,000 yards
BB Yamato engages CA Salt Lake City at 12,000 yards
DD Meade engages DD Asashio at 12,000 yards
DD Frazier engages DD Amatsukaze at 12,000 yards
DD Hayashio engages DD Case at 12,000 yards
DD Hayashio engages DD Cushing at 12,000 yards
DD Woodworth engages DD Nokaze at 12,000 yards
Range increases to 13,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages BB Yamato at 13,000 yards
BB Yamato engages BB South Dakota at 13,000 yards
BB North Carolina engages BB Yamato at 13,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Dunlap at 13,000 yards
BB Yamato engages CA Vincennes at 13,000 yards
CA San Francisco engages DD Hatakaze at 13,000 yards
BB Yamato engages CA Astoria at 13,000 yards
BB Yamato engages CA New Orleans at 13,000 yards
DD Meade engages DD Kasumi at 13,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Gansevoort at 13,000 yards
CA Chester engages DD Amatsukaze at 13,000 yards
DD O'Brien engages DD Hayashio at 13,000 yards
DD Cushing engages DD Hayashio at 13,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Case at 13,000 yards
DD Hatakaze engages DD Morris at 13,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD O'Brien at 13,000 yards
DD Hayashio engages DD Gansevoort at 13,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Frazier at 13,000 yards
DD Yanagi engages DD Caldwell at 13,000 yards
Task forces break off...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Makassar at 65,105, Range 10,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato, Shell hits 9, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Nokaze, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
BB North Carolina
BB Prince of Wales
CA Indianapolis
CA Pensacola
CA Salt Lake City
CA New Orleans
CA Astoria
CA San Francisco
CA Vincennes
CA Dorsetshire
DD Buchanan
DD Barton
DD Woodworth
DD Caldwell
DD Frazier, on fire
DD Gansevoort, on fire
DD Meade
DD O'Brien
DD Walke
DD Morris
DD Dunlap, on fire

Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 60% moonlight: 11,000 yards
Range closes to 27,000 yards...
Range closes to 25,000 yards...
Range closes to 23,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 23,000 yards
Range closes to 21,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 21,000 yards
Range closes to 19,000 yards...
Range closes to 17,000 yards...
Range closes to 15,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 15,000 yards
Range closes to 13,000 yards...
Range closes to 11,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 10,000 yards
BB Yamato engages BB North Carolina at 10,000 yards
BB Yamato engages BB North Carolina at 10,000 yards
BB Yamato engages DD Walke at 10,000 yards
BB Yamato engages BB Prince of Wales at 10,000 yards
BB Yamato engages BB North Carolina at 10,000 yards
Range closes to 6,000 yards
BB Yamato engages BB North Carolina at 6,000 yards
BB Yamato engages BB North Carolina at 6,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
BB Yamato engages BB Prince of Wales at 2,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Walke at 2,000 yards
BB Yamato engages CA Pensacola at 2,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD O'Brien at 2,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages BB Yamato at 2,000 yards
DD Nokaze sunk by DD Woodworth at 2,000 yards
Japanese Task Force Manages to Escape
Task forces break off...

Posted: **Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:10 am**

In a surface engagement, the RN is not to be snubbed.

Posted: **Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:21 pm**

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: fcooke

It always struck me as odd that the Rs were built in the first place. The QEs were the best BBs of their time and should likely have just been replicated instead of doing the Rs. That said the Brits were all over the place with naval design at the time. BCs as ships of the line was pretty much put to rest at Jutland but still got Repulse, Renown and Hood. Which didn't end well for 2 of the three once WW2 rolled around. And then the oddly designed Courageous class, which ended up being converted to carriers, which made them useful.

And then in WW2 tank design in the UK was all over the place. Too many designs and dispersion of resources. But perhaps there was just a desire for diversity and change (like my wife [8|]).

IIRC Churchill had made a pitch to take some turrets off the Rs to lighten them / decrease their draft so that they could sail into the Baltic. The guy was a great war leader but he came up with some 'out there' ideas at times. [X(]

It was a cost saving measure build the R class that way.

The only people who like fairly constant change, cry if they don't get it, are happier when it comes, are babies. It sounds like you are not one of those . . . [;)]

You just described my better half. She makes the changes and I get to deal with the delivery companies, utility companies, shifting furniture, etc. I just want to hang in the hammock and enjoy retirement and the dogs. [:'(]

Posted: **Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:10 pm**

I just want to hang in the hammock and enjoy retirement and the dogs.

Then maybe you should do what I did, get a divorce.[:D]

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