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RE: Italian morale
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:38 pm
by ncc1701e
Are we back to the topic that invasion is too easy?
RE: Italian morale
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:45 pm
by MorningDew
ORIGINAL: ncc1701e
Are we back to the topic that invasion is too easy?
I think that is the root issue.
The concept that Italy surrendered because they allowed the fall of a major city doesn't bother me.
But the fact that a unit invaded a mountainous area and then moved over more mountains seems the issue.
A simple fix to that might be that an an invasion into a hex that, by default, costs more than 1 Operation Point Cost, cannot move further that turn ( maybe can only move 1 hex).
BTW, this was one of the points behind my suggestion that you could designate land units "invasion reserve" units and they would immediately move in the fastest way possible towards an invasion.
RE: Italian morale
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:45 pm
by Harrybanana
ORIGINAL: sveint
ORIGINAL: Harrybanana
but, like Alvaro says, for not railing units into Turin the turn after the invasion.
There was no turn after invasion. The screenshot you see is that turn with German units railed in.
OK then I change my opinion. Invading units should only have 2 OPs, so this is clearly a bug. Alternatively, if this is WAD than taking advantage of it is, IMHO, cheesy.
RE: Italian morale
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:49 pm
by MorningDew
ORIGINAL: Harrybanana
Invading units should only have 2 OPs
Is that in the rules?
RE: Italian morale
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:12 pm
by Flaviusx
Invasions are definitely too easy.
But I still think the defense of Italy here was incredibly sloppy and Sveint is trying to offload his own errors on to the game system. The fundamental problem here is that the defense of Italy was seriously underesourced in the first instance. And if it hadn't been Turin, something else would have given away here in due course.
RE: Italian morale
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:18 pm
by ncc1701e
ORIGINAL: AndrewKurtz
ORIGINAL: Harrybanana
Invading units should only have 2 OPs
Is that in the rules?
I do not think so.
Invasions — For a player to invade a location the player must embark a land unit on to a transport at a port. If there is a fleet at the port already, the embarked land unit will be part of the fleet. The fleet then can move to a
location next to or on top of hexes that can be invaded. Any hex that has water on it can be invaded. Full land hexes can’t be invaded. Hexes in which both land units and fleets can move to are considered coastal hexes. Hexes
in which fleets may move into and land units can only unload from landing craft into are considered beach hexes. Disembarking is unloading on a friendly hex that meets the criteria for an invasion.
When a fleet is on or next to a valid invasion/disembark hex, the player clicks the Show Invasion Hexes toggle within the fleet. This will display invasion hexes in red and disembark hexes in green. Now a player selects the land unit to invade or disembark and right-clicks one of the lighted hexes. The game will auto select the first unit in the fleet by default. Invading or disembarking will use all of the fleet’s remaining operation points and the amount of landing craft required for the unit to disembark the unit onto the hex. A fleet may travel up to 24 hexes and invade in the same turn.
Invaders will take 1 strength point damage for each enemy around the hex they are invading. Armor and mechanized will take double the amount of damage. If the weather is not clear, this amount will be tripled. Marine divisions take half the total amount.
The US VII corps attempts an invasion at hex 135, 53 (Normandy beach). The weather is clear and there are enemy units in Cherbourg and the forest west of Caen. VII Corps will lose 2 strength points on their invasion. If it was raining, they would lose 6 strength points during their invasion. If an American armor was invading, it would take 12 strength points of damage next to two units, in the rain, and for being an armor unit.
RE: Italian morale
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:20 pm
by ncc1701e
ORIGINAL: Harrybanana
OK then I change my opinion. Invading units should only have 2 OPs, so this is clearly a bug. Alternatively, if this is WAD than taking advantage of it is, IMHO, cheesy.
Beware not to impact the
1940 invasion of
Norway by the Germans... [:D]
RE: Italian morale
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:35 pm
by ncc1701e
ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
Invasions are definitely too easy.
But I still think the defense of Italy here was incredibly sloppy and Sveint is trying to offload his own errors on to the game system. The fundamental problem here is that the defense of Italy was seriously underesourced in the first instance. And if it hadn't been Turin, something else would have given away here in due course.
Agree, invasions are too easy. And, to defend sveint, I was the first to complain about the invasion of Rostov in the first turn of Barbarossa saying that it was not realistic (in a game versus sveint). And the game has been changed to avoid this invasion.
But, this does not prevent defending Italy, I agree...
RE: Italian morale
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:29 pm
by AlvaroSousa
Too big to show anything.
But here is the situation.
1940 I had ONE clear weather turns from Oct39 to May40. So I was delayed in conquering France
I botched Norway so he has it.
North Africa I held as he pushed to El Sirte, then I pushed back, surrounded and destroyed with Germans (mid 1942)
He has taken Tunisia
The Russian Front is almost 1941 historical. I didn't get far.
I did a operational location in the South taking key industrial areas and cut off a group of Soviets.
The game is up in the air. I'd say he is winning but there is one critical factor....
I build subs, 11 of them.
I sank the UK navy. It cost me the Italian navy but the German fleet is full force
The German fleet raided the Atlantic all of 1941 and some of 1942
His convoy lines are very beat up and the Western Allies are weak that I can see.
So it will probably come down to 1945. It is now late 1942
In our reverse game where I am the Allies...
He threw everything at Russia, like everything. He got very far, past Moscow, at Rostov, and cut off but didn't take Leningrad. HUGE battles.
The Western Allies hold all of the Med except Italy and Sicily.
The Western Allies are pretty strong, the Soviets not so much.
Strat bombing has been quite effective.
German Luftwaffe is Kaputz, but so is the Soviet one.
This one also is very likely to come down to 1945.
Both games are very exciting with two different styles of play. His more aggressive targeted style vs my more balanced multi-strategy style.
RE: Italian morale
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:29 pm
by AlvaroSousa
But like me he garrisons where he should garrison and reacts appropriately.
RE: Italian morale
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:42 pm
by AlvaroSousa
There is no way he could have landed and then moved up to take the city in 1 shot.
Arm will lose 50% of their Opts = 4
The 1st mountain is 4 movement alone.
I think he landed the turn before and you didn't notice.
RE: Italian morale
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:45 pm
by sveint
ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa
There is no way he could have landed and then moved up to take the city in 1 shot.
Arm will lose 50% of their Opts = 4
The 1st mountain is 4 movement alone.
I think he landed the turn before and you didn't notice.
No he took it in one turn. Ask him.
RE: Italian morale
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:10 pm
by sveint
If it was two turns I'd have zero complaints.
RE: Italian morale
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:19 pm
by Harrybanana
ORIGINAL: AndrewKurtz
ORIGINAL: Harrybanana
Invading units should only have 2 OPs
Is that in the rules?
Not sure if it is in the Rules or not. But in every invasion I have done the invading units have only had 2 OPs. But I have only invaded with infantry. I see in Alvaro's post above he says that armour will have 4 OPs (except Breakthrough which I assume will have 5).
RE: Italian morale
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:26 pm
by Harrybanana
ORIGINAL: ncc1701e
ORIGINAL: Harrybanana
OK then I change my opinion. Invading units should only have 2 OPs, so this is clearly a bug. Alternatively, if this is WAD than taking advantage of it is, IMHO, cheesy.
Beware not to impact the
1940 invasion of
Norway by the Germans... [:D]
Not sure how this affects the German invasion of Norway. Armour isn't used so the invading infantry will just get the 2 OPs.
RE: Italian morale
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:33 pm
by Harrybanana
ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
lol
You gotta be ready for that come 42 and drop garrisons all over northern Italy.
Garrisoning all the ports I have no problem with. Which is why I am to blame in my game for allowing Trieste to be taken. But having to garrison Turin and Milan makes no sense to me. You may be correct that Sveint under garrisoned Italy and therefore it was bound to fall anyway. But that doesn't mean it is OK to ignore the fact that an invading armour could invade and then move 3 hexes trough mountains. That should not be allowed and there is no way that Sveint or anyone shoudl ahve to guard against that happening.
RE: Italian morale
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:06 pm
by MorningDew
ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
Invasions are definitely too easy.
But I still think the defense of Italy here was incredibly sloppy and Sveint is trying to offload his own errors on to the game system. The fundamental problem here is that the defense of Italy was seriously underesourced in the first instance. And if it hadn't been Turin, something else would have given away here in due course.
Agree - the invasion might still happen, but Italy falling will not, with proper garrisoning.
One air unit in the area and the invasion probably fails too if just a single unit with no other naval support (and given no naval units nearby, that is what it looks like)
RE: Italian morale
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:15 pm
by MorningDew
Was thinking it was even odder to be able to move that far in rain, but likely not rain the British turn before.
RE: Italian morale
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:21 pm
by MorningDew
Just did an invasion and took Turin in a single turn.
I then railed a German unit to the hex south west of Genoa and it took the mountain hex.
So that can happen in a single turn.
RE: Italian morale
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:27 pm
by MorningDew
After Germans rail a unit southwest of Genoa - same exact hex ownership.
