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RE: Gamey, Broken, or Just fine?
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:17 am
by FOARP
ORIGINAL: BillRunacre
Thanks for the explanations and this sounds harder and more expensive to achieve than it first appeared.
I don't think the Detachment in Sofia starts with any Ground Cover, and I'm tempted to change that so such an invasion would be just a tad harder in future.
This is about the most I'd support. Adding an extra capital to Bulgaria seems excessive, especially considering that Bulgaria surrendered twice (in 1913 and in 1918) when Sofia was occupied.
RE: Gamey, Broken, or Just fine?
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:24 pm
by mdsmall
Enjoying reading this thread. Normally, when the Bulgarians come in at a timing determined by the Central Power player, they serve as quite a powerful small force of four corps. The problem is that they are deployed along their northern border with Romania - which is understandable, given the result of the Second Balkan War - but it leaves their capital very exposed if attacked first from Serbia to the west. I would support making some change to make them a little less vulnerable to being taken out in one turn. Increasing their capacity to defend Sofia or giving them a second capital (like Romania and Serbia ) would work. Leaving historical accuracy aside, the latter would seem reasonable in terms of game balance.
An interesting alternative - which could apply to all minors and not just in the WW1 game - would be if the game engine could randomly choose between several variations in the initial deployment of minors' units. That way, an attacker would not know for sure what units to expect and how to take them out, before issuing a Declaration of War. This would seem fairly realistic too. (Even more interesting would be if Spying and Intelligence could reveal deployment locations of unmobilized minors - because in a case like the one discussed in this thread, the Entente military attaches in Sofia would be working overtime to figure out the deployment plans for the Bulgarian army. But that would probably have to taken up in someone's mod!).
Cheers,
Michael
RE: Gamey, Broken, or Just fine?
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:20 pm
by Tanaka
Interesting perspectives and ideas guys! Great discussion!
RE: Gamey, Broken, or Just fine?
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:10 pm
by OldCrowBalthazor
Tanaka,
It is a good thread. I really think even a small tweak like Bill proposed would help.
One thing I can say now, that relates to this 'Take Down of Bulgaria', is that I had an operation planned with the French to do this in our game in the fall of 1914...I interpreted your initial moves into Belgium as leisurely, even with your fierce attacks on the fort line. Your push...hard into Serbia, bypassing Belgrade, alarmed me...so I moved the French HQ Dubayl and two corps to the ports on the Mediterranean. A cavalry unit was also planned. This operation was quickly abandoned when the 'Avalanche' happened and you flooded Belgium with Germans and French casualties mounted. Now this cost me precious MMP's and time in transportation costs, both to the ports for embarkation to Albania, and then the return up to the Western Front, which almost collapsed.[:(]
The point is..I WAS planning an early intervention to save Serbia with a French force, and a possible pre-emptive attack on Bulgaria, because I knew it was possible to knock the Bulgars out in a sucker punch if I could get away with it!
RE: Gamey, Broken, or Just fine?
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:14 pm
by Tanaka
ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor
Tanaka,
It is a good thread. I really think even a small tweak like Bill proposed would help.
One thing I can say now, that relates to this 'Take Down of Bulgaria', is that I had an operation planned with the French to do this in our game in the fall of 1914...I interpreted your initial moves into Belgium as leisurely, even with your fierce attacks on the fort line. Your push...hard into Serbia, bypassing Belgrade, alarmed me...so I moved the French HQ Dubayl and two corps to the ports on the Mediterranean. A cavalry unit was also planned. This operation was quickly abandoned when the 'Avalanche' happened and you flooded Belgium with Germans and French casualties mounted. Now this cost me precious MMP's and time in transportation costs, both to the ports for embarkation to Albania, and then the return up to the Western Front, which almost collapsed.[:(]
The point is..I WAS planning an early intervention to save Serbia with a French force, and a possible pre-emptive attack on Bulgaria, because I knew it was possible to knock the Bulgars out in a sucker punch if I could get away with it!
Very interesting to hear about all that was going on behind the scenes!
RE: Gamey, Broken, or Just fine?
Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:20 am
by Tanaka
Yeah so next turn Baghdad falls and Ottoman Empire drops out of the war. Too many morale hits...
RE: Gamey, Broken, or Just fine?
Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:46 am
by OldCrowBalthazor
Moving your Corp out of Medina in 1915 and not putting at least a detachment in there didn't help either, as the locals were getting stirred up by then with a little help from the English......
All the more reason to try a back door approach like trying to take out Bulgaria in a gambit to save Serbia and hazard the Ottomans at the same time..it will change the course of the War, even as the Germans are kicking down the front door, like of Russia. [:)]
RE: Gamey, Broken, or Just fine?
Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 3:01 pm
by Tanaka
ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor
Moving your Corp out of Medina in 1915 and not putting at least a detachment in there didn't help either, as the locals were getting stirred up by then with a little help from the English......
All the more reason to try a back door approach like trying to take out Bulgaria in a gambit to save Serbia and hazard the Ottomans at the same time..it will change the course of the War, even as the Germans are kicking down the front door, like of Russia. [:)]
Yes that was definitely stupid of me you live and you learn. Meant to send a detachment just ran out of troops...
RE: Gamey, Broken, or Just fine?
Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:16 pm
by OldCrowBalthazor
Yes that was definitely stupid of me you live and you learn. Meant to send a detachment just ran out of troops...
Well, if its any consolation, In a previous pbem, circa late 1915, I moved that corp out of Medina to save a situation in Palestine, then realized after that I didn't have enough MMP's to operate the detachment I had picked out in Anatolia to replace it.
Next turn, Sharif Faisel and company were in...
RE: Gamey, Broken, or Just fine?
Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:59 pm
by Tanaka
ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor
Yes that was definitely stupid of me you live and you learn. Meant to send a detachment just ran out of troops...
Well, if its any consolation, In a previous pbem, circa late 1915, I moved that corp out of Medina to save a situation in Palestine, then realized after that I didn't have enough MMP's to operate the detachment I had picked out in Anatolia to replace it.
Next turn, Sharif Faisel and company were in...
That does make me feel better haha did the Ottomans surrender on you?
RE: Gamey, Broken, or Just fine?
Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:11 pm
by OldCrowBalthazor
That does make me feel better haha did the Ottomans surrender on you?
No, but their NM crashed bad enough that the Ottomans couldn't make effective attacks anymore. I've noticed that while the loss of the NE Anatolian NM cities is bad...it isn't a game ender for the Ottomans as it can be loosing Medina or anything in the Levant..even temporarily. Which reminds me of a passage in 'Seven Pillars of Wisdom' by T.E. Lawrence or seen on the movie 'Lawrence of Arabia' referring to Medina.....
Gen. Allenby: "Should we push them out of Medina?
Lt. Lawrence: "No, we should leave them. They know they can't go anyway, for if they do, their Empire will be lost."
Kind of sums up what happens when the Turks lose Medina.
RE: Gamey, Broken, or Just fine?
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:50 am
by Tanaka
And two turns later Austria Hungary quits the war. Don't really understand why as she was in a perfectly defensible position. I think the Bulgarian gambit was just too much for the Ottomans and AH morale to handle. Just curious if the Devs will be working on this issue as the consensus seems to be for fixing it?
RE: Gamey, Broken, or Just fine?
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:11 am
by OldCrowBalthazor
And two turns later Austria Hungary quits the war. Don't really understand why as she was in a perfectly defensible position. I think the Bulgarian gambit was just too much for the Ottomans and AH morale to handle. Just curious if the Devs will be working on this issue as the consensus seems to be for fixing it?
Well, Austria-Hungary losing Trento, Brubeck, and Klagenfurt to the Italians..after losing all the NM cities in Galicia, prior to Bulgaria and then the Ottoman surrender, was more of a contributing factor...her allies surrender was just the final two straws.
Btw..I screen shot the aftermath of the successor states that rise out of Austria-Hungary. There's stuff that happens that's wonky also. Not only did German units get flung out of their positions there, but so did the Russians. Not only that, but the new states go Entente..and can basically get operated anywhere in the east. This I highly don't like, even if my side is the beneficiary of such largess. The thing is, there are some highly interesting things and operations that can occur in the East, but Serb or Hungarian units being able to operate to lets say like the Dvina/Riga area is a bit too much. A few of my friends and I came up with the house rule that the forces of Serbia, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Romania have to stay within their new borders, except for detachments. The Poles can move anywhere, and western Entente forces may also if they so choose. Of course, this is just a house rule...and really doesn't fix the problem.
I know there is a recent thread dealing with this Austro-Hungarian surrender, but I'll go ahead and post an image here of the situation in central Europe and the carcass that once was the Habsburg domains in our game now, where the Germans are still extremely strong holding the west, and ready to envelop Riga in the east.
RE: Gamey, Broken, or Just fine?
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:13 am
by Tanaka
ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor
And two turns later Austria Hungary quits the war. Don't really understand why as she was in a perfectly defensible position. I think the Bulgarian gambit was just too much for the Ottomans and AH morale to handle. Just curious if the Devs will be working on this issue as the consensus seems to be for fixing it?
Well, Austria-Hungary losing Trento, Brubeck, and Klagenfurt to the Italians..after losing all the NM cities in Galicia, prior to Bulgaria and then the Ottoman surrender, was more of contributing factor...her allies surrender was just the final two straws.
Btw..I screen shot the aftermath of the successor states that rise out of Austria-Hungary. There's stuff that happens that's wonky also. Not only did German units get flung out of their positions there, but so did the Russians. Not only that, but the new states go Entente..and can basically get operated anywhere in the east. This I highly don't like, even if my side is the beneficiary of such largess. The thing is, there are some highly interesting things and operations that can occur in the East, but Serb or Hungarian units being able to operate to lets say like the Dvina/Riga area is a bit too much. A few of my friends and I came up with the house rule that the forces of Serbia, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Romania have to stay within their new borders, except for detachments. The Poles can move anywhere, and western Entente forces may also if they so choose. Of course, this is just a house rule...and really doesn't fix the problem.
I know there is a recent thread dealing with this Austro-Hungarian surrender, but I'll go ahead and post an image here of the situation in central Europe and the carcass that once was the Habsburg domains in our game now, where the Germans are still extremely strong holding the west, and ready to envelop Riga in the east.
Yeah I feel like at this point I should wave the white flag. I felt pretty good about the situation in France and Russia and was ok with my defensive positions in AH and offensive in Serbia but now I am cut off everywhere. What a mess
RE: Gamey, Broken, or Just fine?
Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:37 pm
by Tanaka
ORIGINAL: BillRunacre
Thanks for the explanations and this sounds harder and more expensive to achieve than it first appeared.
I don't think the Detachment in Sofia starts with any Ground Cover, and I'm tempted to change that so such an invasion would be just a tad harder in future.
Have the Devs made any decisions on the Bulgarian Gambit for the next patch? We are looking to start a new game then and would be interested to know?
RE: Gamey, Broken, or Just fine?
Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:36 am
by BillRunacre
I will do something there, but not sure when the next patch will be released so if you're really keen to get started then I wouldn't delay.
RE: Gamey, Broken, or Just fine?
Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:54 am
by wodin
This is the second best WW1 grand strategy game for me. WW1 Gold\Centennial being my favourite. Though this is by far the easier to learn and get into.
RE: Gamey, Broken, or Just fine?
Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:33 pm
by OldCrowBalthazor
ORIGINAL: Tanaka
ORIGINAL: BillRunacre
Thanks for the explanations and this sounds harder and more expensive to achieve than it first appeared.
I don't think the Detachment in Sofia starts with any Ground Cover, and I'm tempted to change that so such an invasion would be just a tad harder in future.
Have the Devs made any decisions on the Bulgarian Gambit for the next patch? We are looking to start a new game then and would be interested to know?
Tanaka,
I won't hesitate to attack Bulgaria again, even if things are tweaked a bit if given the same circumstances on a macro strategic level like I found Serbia and the whole situation in the Middle East and the Balkans in our previous epic confrontation. [:D]
RE: Gamey, Broken, or Just fine?
Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:10 am
by FOARP
Yeah, honestly the thing is not that you can one-shot Bulgaria. It’s that a surprise attack on Bulgaria from Serbia makes sense even from a historical POV if you think they’re going to enter the war on the CP side and if you can overwhelm them before help from the rest of the CP arrives. But the thing is you have to have the forces there to do it.
I guess one thing we haven’t talked about is whether there should be a morale hit (or US entry hit) for doing this, because it does mean you’re attacking a neutral and the Entente were supposed to be the “good guys” in terms of respecting neutrality.
RE: Gamey, Broken, or Just fine?
Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:58 pm
by Tanaka
ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor
ORIGINAL: Tanaka
ORIGINAL: BillRunacre
Thanks for the explanations and this sounds harder and more expensive to achieve than it first appeared.
I don't think the Detachment in Sofia starts with any Ground Cover, and I'm tempted to change that so such an invasion would be just a tad harder in future.
Have the Devs made any decisions on the Bulgarian Gambit for the next patch? We are looking to start a new game then and would be interested to know?
Tanaka,
I won't hesitate to attack Bulgaria again, even if things are tweaked a bit if given the same circumstances on a macro strategic level like I found Serbia and the whole situation in the Middle East and the Balkans in our previous epic confrontation. [:D]
Attack away. I would just like to at least be able to defend. And I promise you the situation will not be the same haha