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RE: Late game modelling. Might it be improved?

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:02 am
by Patrat
ORIGINAL: mdsmall

The Strategic Command game system takes into account many factors, but the devs have chosen (up till now) not to introduce further limits on strategic resources, such as manpower or oil. So the only strategic constraints to production in the game are the MPP limits and the build limits per unit type for each Major.

For all the reasons cited above by stockwellpete, I think it would make a big difference to the WW1 game, especially in 1917-18, to start to introduce manpower constraints on new or rebuilt units. It would make the game not only more realistic but also more interesting to play. It would certainly make the arrival of fresh U.S. troops that much more significant a factor on the Western Front.

In theory, there are lots of different ways that manpower constraints could be introduced into the game once a manpower threshold had been reached. This could include:
- Increasing the MPP cost of reinforcements for existing units
- Reducing the maximum amount which units can be reinforced to levels below 10, even if fully supplied
- Increasing impact on unit morale of strength point losses and reducing the morale benefit of new replacement points added
- Increasing the MPP cost of rebuilding destroyed units
- Raising the supply threshold below which destroyed units can only be rebuilt at full cost (i.e. above 5 supply)
- Starting rebuilt units at a lower initial morale level
- Lengthening the production time for rebuilt or new units

An interesting way of triggering some of these measures would be to introduce for each Major a "whole campaign" build limit for infantry and cavalry units. This limit would track the total number of units built or rebuilt over the duration of the game, and not just the number on the board or in production at any given time. Once a Major had reached its campaign build limit, new conscription measures would have to introduced via a DE to increase that build limit, which would come with significant loss of National Morale, increased risk of demonstrations and strikes, along with several of the above constraints on building or rebuilding units. If the increased build limit was reached, there could be further rounds of conscription proposed in subsequent Decision Events (similar to the DE for expending MPPs to raise National Morale), triggering even collateral bigger effects.

I'd be interested to hear other players views on these ideas - especially people who have designed or played mods in any of the Strategic Command games where manpower constraints were a factor.

I think it's worth mentioning that in real life the allies never came close to inflicting more casualties on the germans in any year, than could be made up by that years class of recruits.

In other words, the attrition strategy never came close to working.

The manpower shortages some countries experienced weren't caused by casualties. They were caused by bad decisions regarding the allocation of manpower. Certain countries tried to have armies to large for their population base. They didn't leave enough manpower to man the factories and especially in Germanys case, to work the land. This was a major factor in the blockade causing a famine in Germany in 1918.

One of the purposes of build limits in the game, is to reflect that a country can only allocate so much manpower to the armed forces. If you were to try to implement manpower in the game, in any kind of realistic way, you'd have to have it set up that you would allocate so much manpower to industry, so much to agriculture, and so much to the military. Then your military force structure would be limited by the manpower that you allocated. It would make the game much more complicated.


Also it should be mentioned that when a unit is severely damaged or even destroyed, that doesn't mean that all the manpower, or even a large part of it are causalities. It just means that the unit is no longer combat effective.


PS. I am currently playing a game as the entante against the AI CP set to the very highest difficulty. I haven't seen the kind of unit congestion pictured above.


RE: Late game modelling. Might it be improved?

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:50 am
by stockwellpete
ORIGINAL: mdsmall

The Strategic Command game system takes into account many factors, but the devs have chosen (up till now) not to introduce further limits on strategic resources, such as manpower or oil. So the only strategic constraints to production in the game are the MPP limits and the build limits per unit type for each Major.

For all the reasons cited above by stockwellpete, I think it would make a big difference to the WW1 game, especially in 1917-18, to start to introduce manpower constraints on new or rebuilt units. It would make the game not only more realistic but also more interesting to play. It would certainly make the arrival of fresh U.S. troops that much more significant a factor on the Western Front.

Yes, at the moment in matches against the AI as Entente, it is largely irrelevant if the USA enters or not. If they do enter they have to line up behind 5 or 6 rows of British and French units.
In theory, there are lots of different ways that manpower constraints could be introduced into the game once a manpower threshold had been reached. This could include:
- Increasing the MPP cost of reinforcements for existing units
- Reducing the maximum amount which units can be reinforced to levels below 10, even if fully supplied
- Increasing impact on unit morale of strength point losses and reducing the morale benefit of new replacement points added
- Increasing the MPP cost of rebuilding destroyed units
- Raising the supply threshold below which destroyed units can only be rebuilt at full cost (i.e. above 5 supply)
- Starting rebuilt units at a lower initial morale level
- Lengthening the production time for rebuilt or new units

All of these ideas are worth considering to come up with the optimal combination.
An interesting way of triggering some of these measures would be to introduce for each Major a "whole campaign" build limit for infantry and cavalry units. This limit would track the total number of units built or rebuilt over the duration of the game, and not just the number on the board or in production at any given time. Once a Major had reached its campaign build limit, new conscription measures would have to introduced via a DE to increase that build limit, which would come with significant loss of National Morale, increased risk of demonstrations and strikes, along with several of the above constraints on building or rebuilding units. If the increased build limit was reached, there could be further rounds of conscription proposed in subsequent Decision Events (similar to the DE for expending MPPs to raise National Morale), triggering even collateral bigger effects.

Yes, this is definitely on the right tracks and would be historically realistic. The war weariness of the combatants was the most important determinant of the direction of the war in 1917/18.



RE: Late game modelling. Might it be improved?

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:17 am
by stockwellpete
ORIGINAL: Patrat

PS. I am currently playing a game as the entante against the AI CP set to the very highest difficulty. I haven't seen the kind of unit congestion pictured above.


It may be that it only happens when playing as Central Powers against the AI (as Entente).

RE: Late game modelling. Might it be improved?

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:56 am
by shri
There is a way to avoid this - by restricting RUSSIAN/AUSTRIAN/ITALIAN/OTTOMAN/Minor trenches & Industry to level 2 only. So, they can get max 3 entrenchments + terrain multipliers (wherever present).
This will allow the Germans to roughshod Russians once they get a grip on them.

In real war, these nations all underperformed and the German army with a fraction of total deployment (never more than 1/3rd) steamrolled through Russia in a way that's impossible in game.
Pre War calculations by German General staff that a single German pre-war corps was equivalent to 1.5 Russian ones proved more than right. Infact a single German corps on the defensive often stopped a whole Russian army (3/4 Corps).

To make the Game truly balanced as compared to Historical mode, the GERMAN pre war units (though not their reserves mobilized or purchased later) have to be able to start at level 1 and proceed to level 3 with the UK alone getting them for AnZac and Canadians and the Guard corps (3 full corps of allies and 1 from home), this will make the real life casualties mirrored in game.

I remember an old game, WW1 Gold had this unit discrepancy intact wherein Germans routinely defeated Russians easily but Russian units were cheaper and faster to replace, whereas German ones were slower and costlier to replace.

RE: Late game modelling. Might it be improved?

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:53 pm
by Chernobyl
ORIGINAL: shri
There is a way to avoid this - by restricting RUSSIAN/AUSTRIAN/ITALIAN/OTTOMAN/Minor trenches & Industry to level 2 only.

I was already thinking of restricting Russian/Ottoman Trench Warfare investment from 4 to 3 and Industry Tech investment from 3 to 2 for most nations. I hadn't considered lowering maximum Trench Warfare levels for anyone.

What were late war Russian trenches like? Did they have wire? Were there strongpoints? Was there defense in depth? And were German trenches in the East just as strong as their trench system in France or was it inferior?

RE: Late game modelling. Might it be improved?

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:06 am
by USGrant1962
A bit of a philosophical rant, if I may:

It seems to me that this (late game modelling) is a scenario design issue, not necessarily a game engine issue. So solutions should stick to scenario design. Things like changing build limits and adjusting maximum Production and Industrial research chits, along with interesting historical events, seem to me a better way of adjusting play balance than more aggressive changes to the core game system. Not that I'm sucking up to the devs or anything [&o]

Late game balance is a problem that all devs must struggle with. Snowballing, as friend Pocus calls it, is a perennial problem in 4X strategy and civilization-level games, and can inflict long wargames as well. In my experience, it is hard to playtest the late game when a new beta rolls out every few days or week. Beta testers start new games when that happens, rarely getting to the end game.

That is one of the beauties of a quality long-lasting game system like SC, FOG, AGEOD, JTS, etc. The devs can take real-player, long-term play feedback and improve the game system.

So Huzzah to Bill and Hubert!


RE: Late game modelling. Might it be improved?

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:43 am
by stockwellpete
I have found this on the "Spanish flu" epidemic, which locates its origins to Etaples and Aldershot rather than the USA . . .

http://ww1centenary.oucs.ox.ac.uk/body- ... -pandemic/

It seems like this was much more of a Western Front issue than anywhere else during the course of 1918.

RE: Late game modelling. Might it be improved?

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:53 pm
by Xsillione
Hmm, never seen this many units, not sure how you left them to build up, and most importantly, how you managed to even hold them. Played (and won) on expert against the entente, and never seen this row after row buildup, at worst they had three rows, and that was even with art and hq peppered into. Of course the attrition rate was also quite high, and even the simple reinforcements used up lot of mpp on both side, so building up was not really an option. Yet, it is simply an issue, that in the late game, you simply run out of units, not economy, since you take over territories, gain allies, and boost your economy, but the built limit stays, you get a few more aircraft and armor, but those won't eat your budget, only the art can do that, if you need them to be replaced, for same reason.

RE: Late game modelling. Might it be improved?

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:35 am
by stockwellpete
ORIGINAL: Xsillione

Hmm, never seen this many units, not sure how you left them to build up, and most importantly, how you managed to even hold them. Played (and won) on expert against the entente, and never seen this row after row buildup, at worst they had three rows, and that was even with art and hq peppered into. Of course the attrition rate was also quite high, and even the simple reinforcements used up lot of mpp on both side, so building up was not really an option. Yet, it is simply an issue, that in the late game, you simply run out of units, not economy, since you take over territories, gain allies, and boost your economy, but the built limit stays, you get a few more aircraft and armor, but those won't eat your budget, only the art can do that, if you need them to be replaced, for same reason.

Well, I am not the only player to have mentioned it. I have never beaten the AI playing as Central Powers, whether at Intermediate or Veteran level. The best I can do is get a Stalemate, which is what I expect to do now after losing my first couple of games. I have never been in a position where I could not buy any more Infantry Corps units because I have reached the ceiling set in the game. I have reached maximums for Artillery, Mountain Corps and various types of aircraft. I never have large amounts of MPP's unused. I find playing as the Entente much easier so far and have won a couple of games at Intermediate level.

It may be that I am only a fairly average player and need to study the game more closely, but at the moment I do not feel I can win as the Central Powers because I would need to take Paris to do that. I am working on a Mod that I can use for myself against the AI and I am experimenting with reducing the build limits a bit. I have completely re-worked artillery (roughly reducing the number of units in the game by a half and having maximum shells set at 5; the range is 3 hexes) so that the artillery units represent only the heavier guns. Consequently the number of Infantry Corps destroyed in the game overall is considerably reduced as a result.

RE: Late game modelling. Might it be improved?

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:10 am
by Xsillione
Well, having only 5 shells would mean almost no change in normal or even veteran, you need only 5 to deentrench at max (fortress and cities a bit more, but not that big of an issue, esp with 3 range), and after that, you only need 2-4 inf to destroy an enemy inf,. with two wide space, so you should be able to destroy pretty much you front diveded by two number of enemy unit, if you have enough inf and art. Bit less if you have enough inf, but already used up your art, and on that difficulty, the ai should not be able to punish you too much, so soon your enemy front collapse, esp in intermediate, where taking paris is your goal, and what you could do before the fronts froze.

RE: Late game modelling. Might it be improved?

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:39 am
by shri
Ok, so in mid/late war, there were 3 major offensives on the Eastern front (1916 onwards)

1. German led (supported by Austrians, Ottomans and Bulgars) on Romanians - ended up in near blitzkrieg of Romania, with over 85% country occupied in very short time.
2. Brusilov offensive - ended in massive casualties on both sides but ultimately weakened Russia.
Lake Naroch and other offensives were on simultaneously on German side of the front and disastrously flopped.
3. German offensives and Kerensky offensive on Russo-German front in 1917, ended with disaster for Russia and major victory for Germany and treaty of Brest-Litovsk.

TLDR- except Brusilov offensive, Russia in RL didn't pull a single major offensive against CP after 1914, also Russia always struggled in offensives vs inferior numbers of Germans and collapsed whenever German armies attacked in strength (1915 under Mackensen or 1917 under Hoffman).

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As for Austria, after 1914 no major successful offensive

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As for Italy, no major successful offensive in the whole war.

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Same for Ottomans and all minors. Ottomans had 2 major victories 1 in KUT and 1 in Gallipoli, both against the British Empire but in Defensive set-up only. Their major offensives on the Sinai and in Armenia both flopped badly, Russia did win some minor victories in Armenia but nothing threatening Anatolian heartland.

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TLDR - Minors, Ottomans, Italy, Austria and Russia were substantially weaker to Germans and UK, French were also weaker than those two but stronger than all others.
This distinction is proved by battlefield records in offensive and defensive operations.

RE: Late game modelling. Might it be improved?

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:11 pm
by Patrat
Battle of Vittorio Veneto was a major successful Italian offensive.

Granted it did come very late in the war.