Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Randy Stead

All good advice, Joe, both in game and out of game.[:)]

Those poor torpedo bomber crewmen. Even by Midway they were flying coffins. One crewman survived at Midway, George Gay I think his name was. He watched the 3 IJN CVs get plastered by the DBs and then later was fished out of the water.

Agree about the B-17s. I've seen that advice several times in my travels. Keeps them off the ground at least. Did you ever play the Avalon Hill board game Midway? They had a provision in that game for "B-17s attacks." I think you rolled a 5 or a 6 and you got a hit on one ship. I think even that was too generous and my play mates agreed so we took that out of the rule book.

Thank you. If you post what I suggested with the explanation, I am sure that some people would agree that it would be a nice thing to do. Then you can show her the post as well as the answers.

Ensign George Gay as the only survivor of Torpedo 8. Three days later, a PBY fished him out of the water.

Yes, I know about the Avalon Hill game. Put all of the torpedo bombers of strength of "5" around a ship and it was dead. [:D]

That means I need a port of size 7 to reload. Or, a tender with appropriate support at a smaller port. I have not yet looked up what tenders could carry the Mark 10 as supply, but the Tenders column lists: AE, AKE, AD, AS. Off now to check out those vessels to see if they can fit the bill.

Partially not correct. Port with size 7 , or a smaller Port with a certain level of Naval support, or a tender filled with enough supply.

ORIGINAL: Dili

That means I need a port of size 7 to reload. Or, a tender with appropriate support at a smaller port. I have not yet looked up what tenders could carry the Mark 10 as supply, but the Tenders column lists: AE, AKE, AD, AS. Off now to check out those vessels to see if they can fit the bill.

Partially not correct. Port with size 7 , or a smaller Port with a certain level of Naval support, or a tender filled with enough supply.

The table is on page 284- 287 of the manual.

6 Port plus 184 Nav sup

5 Port plus 264 "" ""

Etc.

For those subs to be re-armed you can use a smaller port as long as you have an AS (Sub Tender) disbanded in that port with enough supply - and it does not have 50% or more damage. I do not recall if one is available in the Coral Sea scenario. IMO, that scenario is so short that you probably wouldn't be able to get one re-armed and back into action anyway.

When you play the full campaign, the only south pacific port with a shipyard large enough to repair US carriers is Sydney - and it is too small for the Lexington class. Much later in the war you will receive a couple of floating dry docks (ARD) with 55,000 ton capacity that are large enough to repair major flotation damage to any allied ship. Until then, you'd best hope that the Lexingtons and your BBs can stay afloat long enough to make it to Pearl. First, disband them in any port until system damage has been reduced to "green" numbers. Sending a seriously damaged ship on a long ocean voyage with high levels of system damage is asking for trouble.

ORIGINAL: Randy Stead

Second run through as Allies even more spectacular, with some last second heartbreak that ruined a shutout. Hockey term.

The score this time 1587 to 657.

See ? Already improving.

I think I caught the transport task force early when it was divided, or appeared divided. I don't know if the AI sends it from two ports and merges them at sea, but the first air attack from my carriers caught 4 ships alone, damaging them. My subs scored about four successes, with hits and a couple of sinkings.

There was one carrier battle, the IJN hit me first, then I struck back at the same time. I always have a heart attack getting hit first, wondering if my counter-strike will make it. The weather gods were messing with me again. One group of 11 DBs missed the TF altogether, and I think they may have been the margin. I got 6 hits on Zuikaku, which limped off with heavy fires. Shokaku got plastered with 8 hits, heavy fires, heavy damage. CA Haguro got two hits, all from bombs. My TBs are only good for target practice, it seems. Perhaps I am doing something wrong there. More reading needed?

As Joe said, early Allied TB are flying coffins. When I can, I’d rather drop them in a safe base, use them for training, and replace them with some USMC squadron, either F or DB. At least in a full campaign, and until I can get the far better Avengers.

Beyond airframes, pilot’s skills are crucial, and the early Allied aviators severely lack them, with averages of 50 being common, so in a scenario 1, you have to train your USN/USMC/FAA. Search the forum for « pilot training » and you’ll find plenty of threads, but long story short, you need to bring the skills as close to 70 as possible, and experience too. And train the Defense skill.

As for the heart attack, I still got one every time I see one of my carriers in the combat animations...

I got Hobart nearly back and one hex out from Townsville the flooding overwhelmed her. Yorktown sank in the same hex as Townsville. I wonder did she sink because I may have forgotten to auto-disband, or if she just died within sight of shore. Lexington was hit hard but made it to port, where she now sits unable to repair due to lack of facilities. Does Brisbane have a shipyard capable of repairing a USN CV? Moot point for the scenario as that hex is off map anyway.

Managing damaged ships is a question of feeling. Sometimes, it is best to simply aim for the closest base, no matter the air cover and size. The important factors are Fire and Flood damage - as long as Fire is raging, you incur additional Flood damage.
You can also disband in a dot base. The ship won’t repair itself, but you can bring an AR (or other tenders for smaller ships) or even an ARD if needed (and confident enough you won’t risk losing it).

Brisbane can’t repair CV. If you open the scenario 1 and check the industry screen, you can sort the data to have the repair shipyard sizes. Compare with the different ship’s tonnage to see where you can repair them. And note that even if a given yard can repair a BB or CV, you don’t necessarily want it to do it - not only a repair shipyard close to the frontline is at risk of enemy strikes, but it’s often advantageous to keep it free for smaller warships (put a 35k-ton BB in a size 40 shipyard, and your repair possibilities are seriously curtailed for a long time).
That’s why capital ships are better shuttled back further, once you’re confident you can keep them afloat for the trip.

I figured it was going to be a quiet game until conclusion but the sneaky IJN sent the balance of the transport fleet to PM. They were spotted by a Catalina rounding the cape. I quickly got a heavy surface group together, since the CV escorts were now free without the CVs to protect. They got the transports in an action about dusk and finished off the lone survivor in a night action. Again, the entire transport group destroyed at sea. Nice.

Well, that is enough for today. Two scenarios. Will have to try it from the IJN viewpoint. Though I have a queasy feeling. For some psychological reason I can play Axis in other games; Germany-Italy, but I find myself reluctant to play as Japan. Can't say why, just do. But I didn't feel that way as a teenager playing Avalon Hill's Midway board game.

One question, which I am sure I can find in the manual or a supplement. I had SS S-44 in Brisbane. She would not reload the 21 inch Mark 10 torpedo. Is that due to the port size at Brisbane? Is there another port in the Coral Sea scenario where you load that size torpedo aboard? Or perhaps I did something wrong or am misunderstanding. I'll be reading the manual again at bed time.

I'm also wondering about ships that make it back to a port in a heavily damaged state. Will getting into port and "anchored" prevent it sinking? If I recall correctly, Townsville is not large enough to dock a big carrier. Must you have a berth big enough to dock it to save it from sinking, or is it merely sufficient to get it into port and anchor it?

Docking and disbanding are not the same thing. You could disband Yamato or Midway in a small atoll dot base.

I've always wondered why so few of the Devastator crews were rescued at Midway. Granted, the plane was obsolete the day the first one rolled off the assembly line, but the USN generally pulled out all the stops to get men back. But in the game I pretty much never used the TBDs on attack unless I knew they were going after soft targets. Generally they were set to ASW and search.

As for damaged USN ships - get them to a port and they are fine most of the time. But heed the advice on getting as much fixed before sending them on a long haul to sort their serious damage. Many a player has lost a BB post PH attack by being hasty trying to get them back to the WC. And in a decent sized port USN ships can take a pounding without sinking, more so when the Kates are not lugging torps.

Things come with experience.

Experience comes with bad decisions, true with WitP-AE as in life. [8D]

Randy,

Congratulations, you are doing very well.

You Said:
…..“It feels rather rewarding to dig up the answers yourself. Of course help is always welcome, but I think you probably remember better if you put in the work yourself’….

I think you have the work ethic to be a very great player.

Work Ethic:
“The principle that hard work is intrinsically virtuous and worthy of reward”

Remember also that this game is more of a journey than a destination.
Take your time and enjoy the trip.

“What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters
compared to what lies within us”
-Ralph Waldo Emerson

Concur with Trugrit

Welcome !

Self Discovery and the Learning Curve are indeed the centerpiece of this tremendous game. You have a great attitude.

There is learning of the 'implementation of orders' or tactics. Ordering units land / air / Naval to fulfill your orders. I encourage you to always think in terms of combined arms tactics - support one with the others.

While at the same time 'keeping your eyes constantly on the strategic' - what is my supply / fuel situation ? - do I have sufficient support ? What is in the pipeline of new troops / aircraft / Naval vessels that will execute my exponentially growing plans.

Two bits of advice from a relative rookie (compared to many kind veterans on this board).

1) A 'foothold in historical knowledge' is helpful. Depending upon your reading background there are plenty of summary articles on wikipedia (as an example) such as "list of IJN carriers in WW2" (etc). They are handy - easy reads - and often refresh or sustain your own knowledge of the Order of Battle on both sides - a learning curve within the learning curve.

2) Learn to appreciate / use "Search" and "Recon". Land based - ship based - you name it. Train pilots to get those skills up ( Naval Search and Recon). In my first couple of attempts at this game (Grand Campaign) so many challenges - so many reactionary moves - so many secondary missions - can be minimized - or first attempts more successful - when you effectively use search and recon.

The table is on page 284- 287 of the manual.

6 Port plus 184 Nav sup

5 Port plus 264 "" ""

Of course, the table in the manual applies for the scenario data for the stock scenarios delivered with the game. The actual limits are determined by looking at the scenario data.

If we look back in the manual at section 9.3.3.2...

"Rearm Level uses a rearm cost for each device aboard a ship. For Mines, ASW devices and Torpedoes, the load cost is used (this is usually the weight of the weapon). For guns (Naval, DP, flak), double the effect (as load cost does not reflect the size of ammo) Aircraft Sorties has a flat cost of 500."

If we look at the scenario editor (scenario 1, stock) for a 61cm Type 93 torp (id 1686) we find a load cost of 2160 per item. If we look at the table in the manual we find a load cost of 2160. [Yay, the documentation matches]

However, if we look for a 21in Mk 14 the table in the manual says 1290 but the scenario editor says...

ID 096 ( "21in Mk 14 Torpedo" ): 3280
ID 1594: ( "21in Mk 14 Torpedo" ): 1286 << Presumably this is the torp that the table has in mind.

The S-Boats used the 21 inch Mark 10 torpedo which actually worked. It was smaller than the Mark 14 with a smaller payload as well.

The S-Boats used the 21 inch Mark 10 torpedo which actually worked. It was smaller than the Mark 14 with a smaller payload as well.

Thanks for the needed focus on the situation at hand.

In the table in the manual: 1620 ("21 in")
In the scenario editor: 1620 ("21in Mk X Torpedo"), ID 1583 (Scenario 1 - Campaign)
In the scenario editor: 1620 ("21in Mk X Torpedo"), ID 1583 (Scenario 3 - Coral Sea)

Getting back to discussion of damaged ships... My dive bombers in my second run of Coral Sea, it was reported that there were six hits and heavy fire on Zuikaku. I expected to see her reported as sunk at the end of the scenario, yet somehow she remained afloat. Were these six hits and heavy fire reported in-game real, or subject to fog of war, which was set to on? I can't imagine how the real ship could have survived six x 1000 pound bombs and the subsequent fires. Without looking up, I wonder if she was one of those carriers built on a BB hull. Shokaku was reported in-game with 8 hits, heavy damage and heavy fire. She was reported sunk at the time of attack.

Thinking back on my loss of Yorktown in the same hex as Townville, I suspect I had forget to turn on auto-disband for the escort TF. Or perhaps she did sink "within sight of land" so to speak; the icon in the hex, but the ship not actually in the anchorage. Which raises another question; can a damaged ship in the anchorage, but not "docked" sink from accumulated damage? And if so, is it irreparably lost? If it is in pier-side repair will it stop a flooded ship from sinking? I know the two battleships in the 12-8-41 turn are full 99s across the board but are not reported as sunk yet. But next turn they sink.

And obviously ships can be sunk in port hexes from air attacks.

Edit: reading through this I think I am not being clear enough. In order to save a sinking ship which you get to a port, of any size, does it have to go to pier-side to stop it from sinking in a smaller port? Will docking it a large enough port do the same? I know Yorktown could not have her major damage repaired at Townsville, I just keep wondering what exact steps must be taken once in the hex with the port to keep her afloat. Is simple disbanding of her TF enough to stop it from sinking? I realize repairing her enough to sail her to a shipyard is another matter, as is having her survive the journey.

Sorry to be such a pain, but I have an inquisitive mind. In the game, what caused the BBs at PH to be lost beyond repair, 99 in all four areas? Being in a sunken state in shallow water it is possible to raise a ship and put her back into service? In game terms, could you have a ship that had 99 flotation points but other damage not all at 99, be repaired and put back in service. I guess I am asking if in game terms it is ever possible to revive a ship with 99 flotation damage. 99 flotation damage at sea and the ship is lost in the game, but can a ship take 99 flotation in a port and be raised again?

ORIGINAL: Randy Stead

Getting back to discussion of damaged ships... My dive bombers in my second run of Coral Sea, it was reported that there were six hits and heavy fire on Zuikaku. I expected to see her reported as sunk at the end of the scenario, yet somehow she remained afloat. Were these six hits and heavy fire reported in-game real, or subject to fog of war, which was set to on? I can't imagine how the real ship could have survived six x 1000 pound bombs and the subsequent fires. Without looking up, I wonder if she was one of those carriers built on a BB hull. Shokaku was reported in-game with 8 hits, heavy damage and heavy fire. She was reported sunk at the time of attack.

Thinking back on my loss of Yorktown in the same hex as Townville, I suspect I had forget to turn on auto-disband for the escort TF. Or perhaps she did sink "within sight of land" so to speak; the icon in the hex, but the ship not actually in the anchorage. Which raises another question; can a damaged ship in the anchorage, but not "docked" sink from accumulated damage? And if so, is it irreparably lost? If it is in pier-side repair will it stop a flooded ship from sinking? I know the two battleships in the 12-8-41 turn are full 99s across the board but are not reported as sunk yet. But next turn they sink.

And obviously ships can be sunk in port hexes from air attacks.

Edit: reading through this I think I am not being clear enough. In order to save a sinking ship which you get to a port, of any size, does it have to go to pier-side to stop it from sinking in a smaller port? Will docking it a large enough port do the same? I know Yorktown could not have her major damage repaired at Townsville, I just keep wondering what exact steps must be taken once in the hex with the port to keep her afloat. Is simple disbanding of her TF enough to stop it from sinking? I realize repairing her enough to sail her to a shipyard is another matter, as is having her survive the journey.

Regarding hits : the combat report is subject to some FOW, but as far as I know, I’ve never seen the number of bomb, shell or torpedo hits being wrong. However, only watching the combat animation will tell you if any or all of those hits were penetrating, or even critical hits, or if magazines exploded (or even which bombs hit - especially important if you have different types of bombers attacking). Heavy fires without heavy damage doesn’t mean the ship will sink.

Regarding Yorktown, the disbanding occurs late in the turn resolution. Hexes are big, and a TF in a base hex doesn’t mean the ships are in the base - they might be several dozen miles from it.
We usually refer to ships disbanded in port as « anchored », docked ships are those ships belonging to a docked TF. A TF which is not docked is not in the « anchorage », but simply in the vicinity.

A ship disbanded in port is usually safe from sinking, unless it continues to receive damage. That damage might be fire damage, as I said earlier : fire damage causes additional flood damage, and once it reaches 100...
A ship still in a TF, even docked, is more at risk, as it could still be steaming if an enemy arrives. And the ship is in the TF, not in the port.

ORIGINAL: Randy Stead

Sorry to be such a pain, but I have an inquisitive mind. In the game, what caused the BBs at PH to be lost beyond repair, 99 in all four areas? Being in a sunken state in shallow water it is possible to raise a ship and put her back into service? In game terms, could you have a ship that had 99 flotation points but other damage not all at 99, be repaired and put back in service. I guess I am asking if in game terms it is ever possible to revive a ship with 99 flotation damage. 99 flotation damage at sea and the ship is lost in the game, but can a ship take 99 flotation in a port and be raised again?

No way in game to raise a sunken ship. During a PH strike, the battle wagons will endure damage, and include fire damage - that’s usually the source of the sinking in later turns.

A ship in port with 99 flood damage is not sunken, it’s still afloat. It’ll require several months of repairs, but it didn’t sink.

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

ORIGINAL: Randy Stead

Sorry to be such a pain, but I have an inquisitive mind. In the game, what caused the BBs at PH to be lost beyond repair, 99 in all four areas? Being in a sunken state in shallow water it is possible to raise a ship and put her back into service? In game terms, could you have a ship that had 99 flotation points but other damage not all at 99, be repaired and put back in service. I guess I am asking if in game terms it is ever possible to revive a ship with 99 flotation damage. 99 flotation damage at sea and the ship is lost in the game, but can a ship take 99 flotation in a port and be raised again?

No way in game to raise a sunken ship. During a PH strike, the battle wagons will endure damage, and include fire damage - that’s usually the source of the sinking in later turns.

A ship in port with 99 flood damage is not sunken, it’s still afloat. It’ll require several months of repairs, but it didn’t sink.

Just make sure that the beer drinkers urinate overboard and not into into the ship.[X(]

There was a submarine lost due to an overflowing toilet.

Thanks for the replies, Ambassador; they are helpful. I think the part about the disbanding not happening until later in the turn may have played a part. It is really irking me that I cannot remember if I had set Yorktown's TF to auto disband. And as you stated, being in the hex is not the same thing as being in the port. A hex covers a large area of sea and land in the real world. Anyway, this run through of the scenario has been a tremendous learning experience for me. I thank all those who have suggested using Coral Sea as your first gaming experience.

Not to question your advice, which is quite useful, but to abstract the game's concept of damage modeling... I come at this issue from many years of playing U-boat games, the most played being Silent Hunter 3. That game's original damage model was quite FUBAR, but the modding community improved it to be more realistic. There are two vessels in that game which sink, the surface ships and the submarines. The original damage model was based on hit points; once a target vessel received "X" number of hit points it sank, often with graphic explosions and booms. It did not matter where on the ship you hit it with torpedoes or deck gun, X hit points and off she went. The complaint was that you could pound the superstructure with the deck gun and once you hit the magic number, the ship sinks. This was all very unrealistic. Then the modders released a damage model related to loss of buoyancy and now we had a winner. You had to "poke holes" in the ships [and subs] to get them to let in water and once sufficient buoyancy was lost down she went.

In light of this, I am having a hard time envisioning how fire, in-game and in real life, makes a ship lose buoyancy and sink. You could lose buoyancy without one fire and a ship will sink. I just can't understand how fire sinks a ship. Think of all those ships that were nuked at Bikini Atoll and stayed afloat, though badly charred. Unless, of course, the fires set off ordnance and fuel and the resultant explosions open the hull to flooding. And of course a large enough fire means the crew cannot do damage control. Perhaps I am on the right track here in understanding how this game models ship loss?

I loaded up the Coral Sea scenario from the Japanese side a few minutes ago and had a look around. Those boys on the carriers sure are a competent lot. It seems the non-carrier TFs have their assignments and will proceed to do their jobs without the player touching their orders; the player's main job seems to be to take care of the Allied ships trying to prevent the landings. I must say it looks rather complicated. In real life the Japanese had a flaw of trying to come up with clever ploys to deceive the enemy and overcomplicated things. AF, the operation in 1942 seems such a plan. In expert players' opinions, is this operation the sort of thing the AI has setup in this scenario the type of thing a human player would do, set up and choreograph this number of different operations, all coming to a head as was planned in MO? Or is this scenario an example of how overcomplicated Japanese plans led to defeat?

ORIGINAL: Randy Stead

Not to question your advice, which is quite useful, but to abstract the game's concept of damage modeling... I come at this issue from many years of playing U-boat games, the most played being Silent Hunter 3. That game's original damage model was quite FUBAR, but the modding community improved it to be more realistic. There are two vessels in that game which sink, the surface ships and the submarines. The original damage model was based on hit points; once a target vessel received "X" number of hit points it sank, often with graphic explosions and booms. It did not matter where on the ship you hit it with torpedoes or deck gun, X hit points and off she went. The complaint was that you could pound the superstructure with the deck gun and once you hit the magic number, the ship sinks. This was all very unrealistic. Then the modders released a damage model related to loss of buoyancy and now we had a winner. You had to "poke holes" in the ships [and subs] to get them to let in water and once sufficient buoyancy was lost down she went.

In light of this, I am having a hard time envisioning how fire, in-game and in real life, makes a ship lose buoyancy and sink. You could lose buoyancy without one fire and a ship will sink. I just can't understand how fire sinks a ship. Think of all those ships that were nuked at Bikini Atoll and stayed afloat, though badly charred. Unless, of course, the fires set off ordnance and fuel and the resultant explosions open the hull to flooding. And of course a large enough fire means the crew cannot do damage control. Perhaps I am on the right track here in understanding how this game models ship loss?

IJN damage control would only be specific people, the entire crew was not trained to do the job.

Yes, fire could destroy a ship. The US Navy had the crews chip away a lot of build up paint that could burn, they also got a lot of furniture off the ship. Sometimes ships with planes on the going into battle with jettison the planes plus the gasoline for them because of the danger. The ammo for the guns and other flammable items were an inherent danger, hence the paint locker where most if not all of such flammable items were normally stored.

The ships at Bikini probably had been stripped of munitions, fuel, and a lot of the flammable items. Plus, while the heat was intense, it was of a short duration.

System damage is the key to understanding how the flooding and fire can be fatal. Firstly, IRL fire could gut a ship and often cause warping of the hull springing open seams. There are also opening in the hull that are sealed with materials that can be damaged by fire - like the glands around the screw shaft, or the condenser intake that brings in seawater to make steam. Secondly, minor flooding from a hull penetration can spread to adjoining compartments via the openings for hatches, electrical, steam and hydraulic/pneumatic lines. Again, the openings have grommets to seal the compartments but fire can often damage those.

So you have some fires and perhaps some flooding but it doesn't seem too bad - how does it spread? System damage affects electrical power and pumps, both needed to deal with damage. If your ship had very high system damage, the damage control crews are using buckets and flashlights. Usually the fire or the flooding will spread if there is not enough capacity to keep it in check.

So what is capacity besides System points? The crew, especially the damage control parties. Each ship has a damage control value that represents the dedicated teams. The crew as a whole may be another level of damage control - the Allied Damage Control advantage is that they trained all their sailors to do damage control while the IJN did not. During combat you may see messages about "Severe Casualties to Damage Control Parties" or even worse "Damage Control Parties Trapped Below Decks". That represents loss of DC capacity. There is another message "Severe Personnel Casualties" which seems to mean crew loss and is implemented by lowering crew experience.

And there is another wrinkle - during combat the crew is not available to help with damage control, just the DC parties. So you will often see that a damaged ship with controllable fires gets attacked in a series of combats (usually a few scattered air attacks) and the fire gets away from them and becomes "heavy fires". If it includes "heavy damage", the ship is in trouble, and you need a great captain and good crew experience and no enemy attacks to beat it back.

So then you get clear of the fray and want to get your heavily damaged ship to port. Heavy fires and high flooding are sensitive to high speed runs so fleeing at top speed is not an option. You set the TF at cruise speed and if possible provide a companion ship of the same size to help fight fires. Also consider other escorts to protect against subs and bombers looking for cripples. Then you have to decide where to go, and that is a big judgement call.

Big ports have better firefighting and repair potential than smaller ones, but they are usually more scarce. You have to guess whether your crew can hold the line on fires and flooding for the distance you want to travel. If no, sometimes it is better to head to the nearest port of whatever size and disband so your crew can devote full effort to putting down the fires and pumping out the minor flood damage. If that worked and you got the fires put out, you could then decide whether to stay in the small port to repair some of the system damage so you can pump water enroute to permanent repairs. Much will depend on the threat environment and how long you can leave the ship in the small port - i.e. do you need it back on the line ASAP or can you play it safe and let it repair slowly for a long time. You can also bring in Naval Support squads, a Naval HQ, an AR or an ARD to help with repairs. And if your ship is a DD, SS, or small patrol vessel, the tenders AD, AS and AG respectively can also help with repairs. Again, do you want to risk those assets to help repair the damaged ship? Your call - based on threats and whether you can afford to lose the assets or not.

What about major Engineering damage? AFAIK, Eng. damage only affects the speed of the ship.
Large ports 7 and up can repair Eng. damage and ARs can repair Eng. damage 5 or less. Shipyards large enough to accommodate the ship can repair Engineering and Flood damage.

And your ship may have some damaged devices (gun turrets or mounts/radar/etc.). The ability to repair those depends on the load cost of the device vs. the size of the port or available shipyard repair. You will not know the projected repair time for these until the ship has passed one turn in damage repairs - apparently to model assessment of the damage.