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RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity
Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:06 pm
by DeepBlack
As long as war persists, so too, will wargames exist.
They will evolve into unforeseen formats and enjoy
undulating cycles of popularity.
Not many will still be playing Squad Leader
one thousand years hence but it cannot be guaranteed
as completely dead.
A precious few professors who specialize in the study
of ancient games may still be fighting over whether or not a string
intersects with the corner of a building, as they enjoy
the passage of a pleasant evening on Mars.
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity
Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:04 pm
by Rosseau
I am really enjoying this thread! Thanks to all who have contributed. Unfortunately, I have a knack for killing discussions. [;)]
I was born in 1956, but didn't get hooked until 1983 with Chris Crawford's Eastern Front on the Atari. So I was maybe 15 years behind the times compared to some of you.
Now I hope "the Mrs." is right here:
"Now, at least Gary's War in the East 2 will probably be worth it."
I am pretty sure both of us will purchase it, partly because our humble income allows, and partly because it part of computer wargaming history.
Also, looking forward to Second Front on Steam, whenever it may come out.
Best wishes to all!
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity
Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:14 am
by MrsWargamer
ORIGINAL: Rosseau
I am really enjoying this thread! Thanks to all who have contributed. Unfortunately, I have a knack for killing discussions. [;)]
I was born in 1956, but didn't get hooked until 1983 with Chris Crawford's Eastern Front on the Atari. So I was maybe 15 years behind the times compared to some of you.
Now I hope "the Mrs." is right here:
"Now, at least Gary's War in the East 2 will probably be worth it."
I am pretty sure both of us will purchase it, partly because our humble income allows, and partly because it part of computer wargaming history.
Also, looking forward to Second Front on Steam, whenever it may come out.
Best wishes to all!
He probably speaks the truth
Once upon a time getting computer versions of old classics was a great idea. But it became obvious (well it took a while to accept it) that Hasbro, who owns AH, which means so many of our classics, would rather those titles rot in hell.
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity
Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:21 am
by warspite1
ORIGINAL: pzgndr
ORIGINAL: warspite1
I think there are some valid points here - but also some dubious points made.
Agreed, the discussion is not definitive but does provide some insights. I am less concerned about what other players play than I am about why developers are not interested in the classic board wargames that I would like to see adapted to the PC with challenging computer opponent. Maybe someday, but probably not. [:(]
warspite1
MWIF is an example of the challenges that can be faced - although
World In Flames, with player interaction required at some many points, optional rules, and rules complexity, is perhaps an extreme example of trying to convert a board game to computer?
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity
Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:10 am
by RFalvo69
ORIGINAL: z1812
As true as that is, it is only within a very small group with a niche interest in gaming. Interest in the more complicated and thoughtful pursuits in life has never been very high. Just look at you tube views for Logan Paul as compared to Albert Einstein.
I finally found out Wizards of the Coast's statement about D&D. The two key points are: "Six years of constant growth for the D&D brand" and "Over 40 million D&D fans around the World."
https://tabletopwire.com/dungeons-drago ... of-growth/
True, these are not Magic: the Gathering" numbers; but can wargames state that they have 40+ million fans around the World?
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity
Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:04 am
by loki100
ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: pzgndr
ORIGINAL: warspite1
I think there are some valid points here - but also some dubious points made.
Agreed, the discussion is not definitive but does provide some insights. I am less concerned about what other players play than I am about why developers are not interested in the classic board wargames that I would like to see adapted to the PC with challenging computer opponent. Maybe someday, but probably not. [:(]
warspite1
MWIF is an example of the challenges that can be faced - although
World In Flames, with player interaction required at some many points, optional rules, and rules complexity, is perhaps an extreme example of trying to convert a board game to computer?
I'd say that AGEOD's WW1 Gold is much the same. Its a very faithful port of a map and counters game that had a lot of immediate interactions. It did a very good job as a result of simulating in-hex combat while played on a physical map.
That is why I hold to the view that in some ways it is the only game that manages the strategic/operational divide in terms of WW1.
Its also near unplayable, some was poor coding decisions (those mostly have been overcome) but its mainly as a design that worked well outside the PC environment runs into problems within it
as to the rest, wargaming is/will be a niche - by that I mean the sort of stuff that Matrix publish. In part the relative complexity (even of something as basically beer and pretzels as say Fantasy General 2) is a barrier, so is the subject matter, so is a significant part of the community (& one strength of this forum is the no politics rules keeps that under control).
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity
Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:35 am
by pzgndr
ORIGINAL: warspite1
MWIF is an example of the challenges that can be faced - although World In Flames, with player interaction required at some many points, optional rules, and rules complexity, is perhaps an extreme example of trying to convert a board game to computer?
Ditto for Empires in Arms. [;)]
I still believe simple classics like AH Afrika Korps, Russian Campaign, etc. should be relatively easy ports to a computer version with computer opponent. Yes, there are ownership rights involved, but a way around those is for a developer to create a flexible 'wargame design kit' where modders can create maps, OOBs, select various rulesets. AFAIK, mods are not subject to copyright infringement, else someone would have come after me years ago for my Advanced Third Reich mod for Strategic Command. Ah well, perchance to dream...
[Deleted]
Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:49 am
by Anonymous
[Deleted by Admins]
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity
Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:03 pm
by MrsWargamer
Fortunately, Hasborg doesn't own the history.
WW2 really happened. So did the war in the desert. You might not be able to call it Afrika Korps, but the terrain is what it is, the units that fought there are what they were, and Nato symbology isn't owned by Hasborg.
Slightly change the artwork. Slightly change the wording of the mechanics. Presto, it's just a game of actual history.
What made some of the past wargames great, was they weren't so overburdened by nauseating levels of micro-detail. And you didn't need to have a degree in history to enjoy playing them. You didn't need 3 weeks to master the rules. A turn didn't take all day long.
We have done it to ourselves willingly, and aggressively and knowingly. The main difference between Gary's War in the East and Russian Campaign, simplicity. Which War in the East sure as hell doesn't have.
Squad leader, I might have ended with Cross of Iron. It would have benefited from nation sets, no further complexity. New maps sets. New scenarios. But we just wouldn't leave it alone. It couldn't just be woods. It had to be more variations of the same modifier, but supposedly different looking terrain. After all, we need to know if it is an apple orchard, or a stand of Christmas trees eh.
I don't care what's loaded on each and every fricking ship in the Pacific. I bought War in the Pacific before I realized how absolutely anal the experience was going to be. I don't want to follow a pilot's training. I want a carrier, I don't want to watch it get built. Just because our computers can handle all the details, doesn't mean I really even want it to. Some say they do. I think they're weird (I would rather use more accurate language, but I won't).
One of my favourite Russian front games is the board game Russian Front (I guess claiming a name first has it's advantages). Modest sized board.
One game I thought I wanted, but failed to purchase, and I'm glad of it, was Fire in the East. a 6x8 foot map. Who the bloody hell thought that was a good idea? Did they even sell enough copies to make it worth making it?
A perfect wargame, a perfect any game is playable in a single sitting. Not several months, several hours.
A perfect wargame, is such, you can play it, and several other designs as well, within a month. It doesn't demand you faithfully play it and never have the time for anything else.
Today, people simply have no attention span worth a damn. In fact, a FB post this long won't get read.
People want it now now now. Read rules, you're kidding, right?
It isn't a young people thing, adults are no better.
And we have to debate why wargaming is not doing so well?
It's obvious.
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity
Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:20 pm
by RangerJoe
There is no need to insult people who like and pay War in the Pacific.
You are using your personal, subjective definition of a perfect game. Others have their personal, subjective definition of a perfect game. There is no need to insult people who believe differently than you do, all opinions presented in a civil manner should be respected and not insulted.
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity
Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:24 pm
by rico21
MrsRangergame and GamerJoe, keep cool, please.[;)]
[Deleted]
Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:34 pm
by Anonymous
[Deleted by Admins]
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity
Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:50 pm
by Lobster
ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
What made some of the past wargames great, was they weren't so overburdened by nauseating levels of micro-detail.
The game at the pinnacle of micro detail is a game produced by SPI back in the day. Campaign for North Africa. I bought it. No words can describe the level of micro management. How much water was lost to evaporation and spillage due to poorly designed jerry cans. [:D]
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity
Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:08 pm
by RFalvo69
ORIGINAL: Lobster
ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
What made some of the past wargames great, was they weren't so overburdened by nauseating levels of micro-detail.
The game at the pinnacle of micro detail is a game produced by SPI back in the day. Campaign for North Africa. I bought it. No words can describe the level of micro management. How much water was lost to evaporation and spillage due to poorly designed jerry cans. [:D]
Sheldon demonstrated on "The Big Bang Theory" that the game is playable. By him, at least [:D]
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity
Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:59 pm
by stuart3
ORIGINAL: RFalvo69
ORIGINAL: Lobster
ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
What made some of the past wargames great, was they weren't so overburdened by nauseating levels of micro-detail.
The game at the pinnacle of micro detail is a game produced by SPI back in the day. Campaign for North Africa. I bought it. No words can describe the level of micro management. How much water was lost to evaporation and spillage due to poorly designed jerry cans. [:D]
Sheldon demonstrated on "The Big Bang Theory" that the game is playable. By him, at least [:D]
I was crazy enough to buy that game. I even read the rules and copied the forms players had to fill in, but I never had a big enough table to lay the boards out on and certainly not to devote to the game for the estimated seven years it took to play.
https://kotaku.com/the-notorious-board- ... 1818510912
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity
Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:22 pm
by MrsWargamer
Would someone clue in Ranger Joe that I am long since past caring a single iota what he has to say about ANYTHING I post.
He's a miserable little shit at best, and clearly trolling my posts just to interject yet another reason to be told to cut it out.
Seriously Joe, I've tried, I'm done trying. Piss off, stay out of my comments. I could NOT care less what your lot in life is like. You've made it plain, you can't just shut up and play nice.
I tried blocking you, clearly you can't block me. I'd gladly accept a month-long ban if I could be assured you had to spend it with me.
Is that clear enough Joe?
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity
Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:53 pm
by Aurelian
ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
Would someone clue in Ranger Joe that I am long since past caring a single iota what he has to say about ANYTHING I post.
He's a miserable little shit at best, and clearly trolling my posts just to interject yet another reason to be told to cut it out.
Seriously Joe, I've tried, I'm done trying. Piss off, stay out of my comments. I could NOT care less what your lot in life is like. You've made it plain, you can't just shut up and play nice.
I tried blocking you, clearly you can't block me. I'd gladly accept a month-long ban if I could be assured you had to spend it with me.
Is that clear enough Joe?
The green button has no expiration date. The trick is to keep it pressed. Otherwise this will just keep circling the toilet until both of you get the management's plunger.
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity
Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:08 pm
by LarryP
ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
Fortunately, Hasborg doesn't own the history.
WW2 really happened. So did the war in the desert. You might not be able to call it Afrika Korps, but the terrain is what it is, the units that fought there are what they were, and Nato symbology isn't owned by Hasborg.
Slightly change the artwork. Slightly change the wording of the mechanics. Presto, it's just a game of actual history.
What made some of the past wargames great, was they weren't so overburdened by nauseating levels of micro-detail. And you didn't need to have a degree in history to enjoy playing them. You didn't need 3 weeks to master the rules. A turn didn't take all day long.
We have done it to ourselves willingly, and aggressively and knowingly. The main difference between Gary's War in the East and Russian Campaign, simplicity. Which War in the East sure as hell doesn't have.
Squad leader, I might have ended with Cross of Iron. It would have benefited from nation sets, no further complexity. New maps sets. New scenarios. But we just wouldn't leave it alone. It couldn't just be woods. It had to be more variations of the same modifier, but supposedly different looking terrain. After all, we need to know if it is an apple orchard, or a stand of Christmas trees eh.
I don't care what's loaded on each and every fricking ship in the Pacific. I bought War in the Pacific before I realized how absolutely anal the experience was going to be. I don't want to follow a pilot's training. I want a carrier, I don't want to watch it get built. Just because our computers can handle all the details, doesn't mean I really even want it to. Some say they do. I think they're weird (I would rather use more accurate language, but I won't).
One of my favourite Russian front games is the board game Russian Front (I guess claiming a name first has it's advantages). Modest sized board.
One game I thought I wanted, but failed to purchase, and I'm glad of it, was Fire in the East. a 6x8 foot map. Who the bloody hell thought that was a good idea? Did they even sell enough copies to make it worth making it?
A perfect wargame, a perfect any game is playable in a single sitting. Not several months, several hours.
A perfect wargame, is such, you can play it, and several other designs as well, within a month. It doesn't demand you faithfully play it and never have the time for anything else.
Today, people simply have no attention span worth a damn. In fact, a FB post this long won't get read.
People want it now now now. Read rules, you're kidding, right?
It isn't a young people thing, adults are no better.
And we have to debate why wargaming is not doing so well?
It's obvious.
I'm weird then according to your post. Actually, you had a better word for me but didn't use it. I'm not offended. However, a lot of people in these very forums are addicted to WitP-AE. I play it occasionally. I like it a lot, but I also like WarPlan which is much faster. I like them both and I'm glad that I have the option to play either. If a person thinks that WitP is way too involved, they have the choice for hundreds of other games less complicated. I'm one of those weird gamers that love micromanagement, the more the better. And if it gets more so because my PC can do more, GREAT!
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity
Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:17 pm
by DeepBlack
Did anyone ever play by snail mail
using the newspaper stock market as a random die
roll generator?
A Panzerblitz scenario could take
months to finish. In fact, I always lost and
conceded to avoid the torture of a very looooong
losing experience.
Having to keep a board map in cryogenic
stasis for long periods, free of thunderstorm drafts or marauding kittens
was also a technical challenge.
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity
Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:32 pm
by RangerJoe
ORIGINAL: DeepBlack
Did anyone ever play by snail mail
using the newspaper stock market as a random die
roll generator?
A Panzerblitz scenario could take
months to finish. In fact, I always lost and
conceded to avoid the torture of a very looooong
losing experience.
Having to keep a board map in cryogenic
stasis for long periods, free of thunderstorm drafts or marauding kittens
was also a technical challenge.
Yes, I have PBMed. PBEM is a lot faster and easier to reset the game board with all of the units and settings involved.