Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

How about if the rockets were to start at 1 level higher?

Yes and they need a range of three to reach London which is what they were fired at historically. Just built them in my MP game because I am winning and why not and they are useless cannot reach London...

By default their range is limited, but the range will increase as you continue to develop Rocket research levels.

@the Gang --- Seems like there's a consensus from players and Billy R. that we could "give the Germans" Rockets level #1 tech to start the game AND remove the tech chit for Rockets. This is a gentle push to help this unused Unit. The repercussions, the Axis is always selling that at half price for what 75 MMP will be missing from balance. Top Player's might want to ring in if this messes up competitive balance.

What if we give Germans Rockets +1 to start game AND a chit in Rockets, that too much?

@normalPlayers --- this suggestion seem reasonable?
@topPlayers --- doubt you'll use Rockets even with gentle push. The missing selloff MMPs screw up the game?
@historians --- this suggestion seem reasonable?
@Billy R & Hubert --- Thoughts, are you the guys who make a change?

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

@the Gang --- Seems like there's a consensus from players and Billy R. that we could "give the Germans" Rockets level #1 tech to start the game AND remove the tech chit for Rockets. This is a gentle push to help this unused Unit. The repercussions, the Axis is always selling that at half price for what 75 MMP will be missing from balance. Top Player's might want to ring in if this messes up competitive balance.

Bored of this argument, pushed as a shield against any meaningful change. That's not an international chess tournament with one million dollar prize, you know. They will adapt.

EDIT: Here is another meaningful change that will favor the Axis, if you want balance. Bonus point, this goes toward historicity. Have the US able to only put one chit in Submarines, to represent the time necessary for them to have efficient subs. This should prevent seeing level 3 subs in 42 against Japan.

ORIGINAL: Pocus

Bored of this argument, pushed as a shield against any meaningful change. That's not an international chess tournament with one million dollar prize, you know. They will adapt.

Get bored. Have at it, you're bored.

Obviously you have not been informed. I'm the USA Ryder Cup, team Captain. We're in meetings discussing the best lineup to play the Euros for the 1 v 1 first round.

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-Captain America

Right now the research cost is 175, that's some serious cash that I could use to repair my tanks. Maybe 150 will be more reasonable? Still I'd rather spend that on my subs or air range research to win the battle of the Atlantic...just saying. So may be even 125? That may be inaccurate historically but for the sake of game balance, for anyone with a sane mind to invest in it.

I'd keep 1 chit invested in it at lvl 0, but give Germany a free Rocket early 44 with full tech. Less cash less motivation to sell and more to keep investing. But then, say I made it into level 4, so it can have a range of 6 and resource attack of 5, so I can hit the Cardiff mine, or use it near battle line to hurt enemy troop supply. That's still a cost of 500 (assuming 125 research cost and a free unit). Germany really need to maintain about a 1 to 2 ratio in MPP cost in anything against the Allies to win the game, and I just don't see the rockets can do 1000 MPP equivalent damage to the Allies over the course of the game. For it to be worthy, the research cost has to be really 100 or 75 per chit.

An alternative is to reduce the max research lvl to 2 (corresponds nicely to V1 and V2), with research cost at 150 or 175 per chit, single chit allowed, with each lvl give a 2 range and 2 resource attack improvement (this also helps with cost in upgrading the rockets). This in effect makes it the same as current lvl 4. For a total cost of 300 or 350, I think I'll give it a try in a real game. Too bad we can't limit the starting time of a research, but we can limit the rockets to be only purchasable in 44.

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

By default their range is limited, but the range will increase as you continue to develop Rocket research levels.

I see and if they are moved up one level as you suggest they will be range 3 then? Sounds like a reasonable change to me.

BillRunacre wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:24 pm How about if the rockets were to start at 1 level higher?

Was this ever adjusted? Don't see anything in the patch notes? I tried them in one game and just a waste of resources in my opinion. Gonna keep selling chit at game start...Does anyone actually find them useful and not do this?

It was changed back in April last year:

- The cost of Rocket research has been reduced from 175 to 150 MPPs, and Germany’s starting levels in this increased by 1 in all campaigns (ElvisJJonesRambo).

Nobody uses them.
I've tried couple times against good opponents.

Rockets, at least launch during Rain & Snow.
Damage is less in bad weather
Can only build 2 Rocket units, that's alot of tech for only 2-units
Doesn't help that much against Russia. Vast country isn't gonna fold over 2 Rockets.
Best use in Italy. Can close Sicilian ports which have been captured or limited cities Allies get upon invasion.
Can be used in France to close Allied ports, until detected. The the Air Force will wipe the out.

I'd give the Germans a Rocket within historical timeline.
(same could be said about giving the Japs a Kamikaze for kicks & giggles when US Navy enters some SeaZone/Island in latter days of war). *nobody buys Kamikazes either.

Rocket Man isn't scary,
-Legend

BillRunacre wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:18 pm It was changed back in April last year:

- The cost of Rocket research has been reduced from 175 to 150 MPPs, and Germany’s starting levels in this increased by 1 in all campaigns (ElvisJJonesRambo).

Hmm strange I searched the whatsnew file for the word rocket and this does not come up nor do I see it in the April 2021 changes? What am I missing here?

ElvisJJonesRambo wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:09 am Nobody uses them.
I've tried couple times against good opponents.

Rockets, at least launch during Rain & Snow.
Damage is less in bad weather
Can only build 2 Rocket units, that's alot of tech for only 2-units
Doesn't help that much against Russia. Vast country isn't gonna fold over 2 Rockets.
Best use in Italy. Can close Sicilian ports which have been captured or limited cities Allies get upon invasion.
Can be used in France to close Allied ports, until detected. The the Air Force will wipe the out.

I'd give the Germans a Rocket within historical timeline.
(same could be said about giving the Japs a Kamikaze for kicks & giggles when US Navy enters some SeaZone/Island in latter days of war). *nobody buys Kamikazes either.

Rocket Man isn't scary,
-Legend

Or why not move any upgrades to rocket artillery to rockets tech. People would sure research it then...

Tanaka wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:05 am

BillRunacre wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:18 pm It was changed back in April last year:

- The cost of Rocket research has been reduced from 175 to 150 MPPs, and Germany’s starting levels in this increased by 1 in all campaigns (ElvisJJonesRambo).

Hmm strange I searched the whatsnew file for the word rocket and this does not come up nor do I see it in the April 2021 changes? What am I missing here?

I think some changelogs accidentally didn't include all the campaign changes.

ElvisJJonesRambo wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:09 am Nobody uses them.
I've tried couple times against good opponents.

Rockets, at least launch during Rain & Snow.
Damage is less in bad weather
Can only build 2 Rocket units, that's alot of tech for only 2-units
Doesn't help that much against Russia. Vast country isn't gonna fold over 2 Rockets.
Best use in Italy. Can close Sicilian ports which have been captured or limited cities Allies get upon invasion.
Can be used in France to close Allied ports, until detected. The the Air Force will wipe the out.

I'd give the Germans a Rocket within historical timeline.
(same could be said about giving the Japs a Kamikaze for kicks & giggles when US Navy enters some SeaZone/Island in latter days of war). *nobody buys Kamikazes either.

Rocket Man isn't scary,
-Legend

Any downsides if we increased the Build Limit to 3?

BillRunacre wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:08 am

ElvisJJonesRambo wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:09 am Nobody uses them.
I've tried couple times against good opponents.

Rockets, at least launch during Rain & Snow.
Damage is less in bad weather
Can only build 2 Rocket units, that's alot of tech for only 2-units
Doesn't help that much against Russia. Vast country isn't gonna fold over 2 Rockets.
Best use in Italy. Can close Sicilian ports which have been captured or limited cities Allies get upon invasion.
Can be used in France to close Allied ports, until detected. The the Air Force will wipe the out.

I'd give the Germans a Rocket within historical timeline.
(same could be said about giving the Japs a Kamikaze for kicks & giggles when US Navy enters some SeaZone/Island in latter days of war). *nobody buys Kamikazes either.

Rocket Man isn't scary,
-Legend

Any downsides if we increased the Build Limit to 3?

some of my games as axis i get level 3 and is not worthy with only 2 units, the point of investment on rockets its to have many units of V2,.. lets say you can build 10 units at the same time

Looking up historical usage, appears Germany launched them late in the war, 1944. It was a super weapon that was a day late, and a dollar short. (unless you were the unfortunate ones killed by)

1) Germany used in 1944
2) Range is stated roughly 75 miles
3) Should 'National morale' of Great Britain drop when London absorbs a hit?
4) Not sure how mobile the launch pads work and required support staff (meaning, should rockets be allowed to operand),

Within the confines of a game, what's the goal. Historically, Germany was also making the first "Jets" also, but the war was coming to an end.

Possible solutions:
a) Just give the Germans via a script, 1-rocket unit in 1943? (maybe charge them 50 MMPs?)
b) Could bump the build limit to 3. Human v Human, nobody will buy. Germany pressed for Panzers & Rockets won't help in Russia much. Well, Rockets help, but not at the cost of buying 3 Panzers + yet another tech.
c) Yet another idea: only change the cost. Germans can buy two Rocket for 100 MPP each, but do not change the build amount nor change tech. This way, some players will buy the weak toys which could be come annoying to Allies but not super weapons without range & out of touch destruction. This might sweeten the action of controlling the skies over the English Channel. Players who don't invade Malta could stick in Sicily to train. Or on the Edge of the Channel.
d) could increase the range to begin, but not the power.

A quick observation I just wanted to add: rockets cannot be transported, at all, by any of the 3 types of transports.

BillRunacre wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:08 am

ElvisJJonesRambo wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:09 am Nobody uses them.
I've tried couple times against good opponents.

Rockets, at least launch during Rain & Snow.
Damage is less in bad weather
Can only build 2 Rocket units, that's alot of tech for only 2-units
Doesn't help that much against Russia. Vast country isn't gonna fold over 2 Rockets.
Best use in Italy. Can close Sicilian ports which have been captured or limited cities Allies get upon invasion.
Can be used in France to close Allied ports, until detected. The the Air Force will wipe the out.

I'd give the Germans a Rocket within historical timeline.
(same could be said about giving the Japs a Kamikaze for kicks & giggles when US Navy enters some SeaZone/Island in latter days of war). *nobody buys Kamikazes either.

Rocket Man isn't scary,
-Legend

Any downsides if we increased the Build Limit to 3?

Sounds good to me.