Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor

lots of interesting data Hammy: here is the book and table I am referencing for this discussion- "Operation Barbarossa: the Complete Organizational and Statistical Analysis, and Military Simulation- Vol IIA. by Nigel Askey"

And here is his TOE and actuals for 1st Pz division right before the invasion (which we already noted is unique in someways- lol just like just about every Heer divison.

In his table, notice that while 1st Pz div is authorized 150 Sdfkz 251 Half tracks, it actually has, as far as the Askey has ascertained at least as the month of June (and before the actual invasion of course) 182 half tracks. Presumably this to make up for its TOE shortage of Sdfkz 250 halftracks.

Also this table shows that each regiment does have 54 rifle squad (1 battalion with 27 squads in trucks and 1 battalion with 27 in halftracks). In my reading I'm still tryng to figure out if you are saying that 1 Pz div. went to war with only 3 battalions of infantry or (2 battalions in halftracks and 1 battalion in trucks)?

Amazing what I decide to care about on any given day.....Askey over inflates capabilities(, there are according to him More squad transports than squads to transport) for our game design purposes by use of authorised numbers in general, this in many instances pads the TOE, as you end up with more in game than we’re produced by industry*as the 251 production numbers show, after being produced, and accepted into service, some go to the training depots to train recruits on, others are issued to formations, others held in depots to replace formations requesting replacements, and when depots had large surplus creation of further formations. So the on hand in formations is well below authorised, and total production, on hand in the Heer includes all 4 categories on in service, in local repair short term, long term usually needs a part, and in transit to rear maintenance and cannot be re paired locally. 251 on hand was 61 for the Div.

Hence no on hand number value is present for duty number. since we have records for all 251 chassis built by month, from start of production to end of war, the game should have a hard cap, otherwise the replacement sequence will over time replace vastly more of them than industry produced to do that, so in wite1 your Div template tells the engine what to try and build back up to for 100%, so it’s possible to lose all your 153 PzrGrn squads along with the extra costed equipment, and have them replaced in game as it attempts to replace them, as I understand it. This in game Panzer Ball allows a player to play in a manner that industry could not sustain, for losses compare wite1 251 squads by year, in 42 scn start, use the editor to quickly find the formation with armour, they have all but disappeared, consumption has removed nearly all stocks and replacemnt capacity, leaving next to nothing, you can see this yourself in looking at combat outputs and see the 251 squad is prone to being a casualty in your own games. Where they all came from in 43 scn is another matter, I’d have to use a spreadsheet to give an explanation and doing this on I pad is not fun.

Rifle Brigade for 1 Panzer had 2 Regiments, First and 113rd one Bttn from Regiment one, having 3 Bttns, formed the 113 Regiment, and added a second Bttn for Barbarossa , 2 have 251, two have none, one of which has un hardened 251 chassis. sorry I was not clear I was concerned with squads with added armour protection.

* 760 is hundreds more than industry has built.

Another example of padding in Askey giving 7 and 20 Pzr Div each 95 Panhards, NARA T315h R406 0645
Holds the source document he uses via way of a secondary source book, it gives 7 Pzr 64, not 95, examples such as this appear on every page in Askeys work.

P

ORIGINAL: RedLancer

I think a bit of clarification may be required as the brand new systems we have introduced for WitE2 change things quite a lot and it can be confusing.

As Great_Ajax (our lead scenario designer) says 251s are not a specific ground element in the squad structure. You can see this in this screenshot of the Squad structure. This is different to WitE1.

We can do this differently in WitE2 as production now includes chassis and airframes as an initial step. To create a PzG squad you still have to use a 251 Chassis. You can see the import data in the bottom left quadrant of the screenshot. Whilst the number of possible imports are greater than the historic figures quoted by Hanny the ultimate restriction is the total number of chassis produced (not shown). I'm afraid there is not a simple way to see how many squads there are at the start of GC41 but we have done our very best to follow history within the game's coding restraints.

By setting the restrictions at chassis and airframe level we can have more tolerance in variant production when the game diverges from history as players' progress is different. The game will broadly follow historic production limits although that can still vary due to strategic bombing damaging factories.

Your image shows the squad to have an armour rating of one, movement allowance of a half track and fuel requirement of a half tuck and armour protection of a half truck, a replacemnt cost to include a 251,a squad size of 12, squad and a driver an gunner for the squad in a half truck, as per 41 Schützen Toe, exactly the same as in wite1, the game tracks Panzer Grn squads with a squad 251 asset. It also grants the 251 half track mg 34 to the squad. I do not see the difference you see.

In witw2 you say 251 chassis are the start point, required to manufacture, and production of them is the limiting factor, so it’s a simple matter matter data entry, the number of 251 chassis at start of game cannot be greater than the number produced by June 41, the number produced during the game each month is variable, from randomising effects of SB, but close to known production numbers, new units coming in with chassis, leaves what is a viable to replace losses. can you confirm that cap on replacements is in game. Based on chassis built each month, in game rather than unlimited replacements?

Post 3 image gives First Panzer 60 251 chassis for instance, so this Div has 60 assets that could require replacements.

ORIGINAL: Wuffer

You can see this in this screenshot of the Squad structure.

Thanks for further clarification, Red Lancer.

Probably I didn't understand this abstraction yet, but for the lawman it looks like a Pz.Grd.-squad having three MG34s?

Just curious how the system works, a bonus for vehicle mounted?
Yeah, it's tricky to simulate, when armoured infantry is riding through arty fire while protected, but then fighting by foot...

Pintle mounted vehicle mg 34 in AA mode in wite1, I would assume the same goes for 2.

The difference from WitE to WitE 2 is that the chassis system will limit the number of panzergrenadiers that can be built. Panzergrenadier Squad production is not unlimited. There are now two specific factory locations in Hannover and Zwickau that build the Sdkfz 251 chassis. Each Panzergrenadier squad requires a production built 251 chassis before it is created. The OBs for Panzer Divisions in 1941 have specifically been created for WitE 2 to address the limited number of Sdkfz 251s that were available and these OBs are consistent with Niehorster's and Askey's published work. The standard panzer division has a single company of armored panzergrenadiers and panzer pioneers. However, there are variants in which several panzer divisions have no armored panzergrenadiers and only about half of the panzer divisions actually have their panzer pioneers on hand. At start, there are some 212 x Panzergrenadier Squads and 95 x Panzer Pioneer Squads.

In WitE2 the creation of a ground element that requires a chassis (or aircraft variant that requires an airframe) can only be achieved if the requisite chassis (or airframe) is available in the production pool. The production of a chassis is a separate step to the creation of ground elements using it. Using chassis and airframes makes balancing production close to historic levels much easier.

WitE1 does not have 'chassis' so creation of PzG squads could be created without any consideration of how many 251s were ever produced.'

So if there is not a "SdKfz-251" chassis available for a Panzergrenadier squad, will a truck get substituted in its place? Is there a way in the GUI to set a default if the 251 is NOT produced? If there is not a 251 available does that mean the Panzergrenadier squad does NOT get produced?

ORIGINAL: oldMarinePanzer

So if there is not a "SdKfz-251" chassis available for a Panzergrenadier squad, will a truck get substituted in its place? Is there a way in the GUI to set a default if the 251 is NOT produced? If there is not a 251 available does that mean the Panzergrenadier squad does NOT get produced?

its hard to explain all this pre-release but the key is to stop thinking in WiTE1 terms, the production model has very different building blocks.

As noted by Trey:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

... Each Panzergrenadier squad requires a production built 251 chassis before it is created. ...

so no 251, no element. Now if there are no PzGr elements to fill out the TOE the game engine may look for a different element that might be coded as available to fill the slot

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

The difference from WitE to WitE 2 is that the chassis system will limit the number of panzergrenadiers that can be built. Panzergrenadier Squad production is not unlimited. There are now two specific factory locations in Hannover and Zwickau that build the Sdkfz 251 chassis. Each Panzergrenadier squad requires a production built 251 chassis before it is created. The OBs for Panzer Divisions in 1941 have specifically been created for WitE 2 to address the limited number of Sdkfz 251s that were available and these OBs are consistent with Niehorster's and Askey's published work. The standard panzer division has a single company of armored panzergrenadiers and panzer pioneers. However, there are variants in which several panzer divisions have no armored panzergrenadiers and only about half of the panzer divisions actually have their panzer pioneers on hand. At start, there are some 212 x Panzergrenadier Squads and 95 x Panzer Pioneer Squads.

chassis were produced in 5 plants, final assembly at three, you mention two of them, the third Murzzsulag in Austria d orders for 250 in 41, 150 a month in 42 and 300 a month till end of war and fulfilled by wars end 2322; including all of valiant 9, did you miss its contribution or abstract it’s role into the two?

Askeys is not an academic, unlike say Charles C Sharp with a far better multi volume work and lectures and teaches on TOE for Ww2, Its Askeys hobby, he uses others works as he cannot read non English primary material, he is not a trained historian, which is why his 251 numbers are far in excess of the number produced, as he cannot use primary sources.

ORIGINAL: RedLancer

In WitE2 the creation of a ground element that requires a chassis (or aircraft variant that requires an airframe) can only be achieved if the requisite chassis (or airframe) is available in the production pool. The production of a chassis is a separate step to the creation of ground elements using it. Using chassis and airframes makes balancing production close to historic levels much easier.

WitE1 does not have 'chassis' so creation of PzG squads could be created without any consideration of how many 251s were ever produced.'

ok that covers at start, and production of replacements. An excellent improvement over wite1 production.

Does the production chassis cost of arriving elements as reinforcements become costed to the chassis pool?, lowering it perhaps and causing replacement issues in game, or do they arrive for free production cost and it’s replacements that are abstracted as the limiting value.

Can't answer the question on production as that isn't my lane.

I'm working through a series of OB reviews based on KSTNs, Gliederungs and numerous other works. There are so many variations of basic units that some amalgamation and compromises have to made because we can't make a separate OB for every single variation. I have Sharp's work on the Soviets which we use extensively but I don't have any of his other works. Do you have any reference recommendations? I'm always looking to build up my resources.

ORIGINAL: Hanny

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

The difference from WitE to WitE 2 is that the chassis system will limit the number of panzergrenadiers that can be built. Panzergrenadier Squad production is not unlimited. There are now two specific factory locations in Hannover and Zwickau that build the Sdkfz 251 chassis. Each Panzergrenadier squad requires a production built 251 chassis before it is created. The OBs for Panzer Divisions in 1941 have specifically been created for WitE 2 to address the limited number of Sdkfz 251s that were available and these OBs are consistent with Niehorster's and Askey's published work. The standard panzer division has a single company of armored panzergrenadiers and panzer pioneers. However, there are variants in which several panzer divisions have no armored panzergrenadiers and only about half of the panzer divisions actually have their panzer pioneers on hand. At start, there are some 212 x Panzergrenadier Squads and 95 x Panzer Pioneer Squads.

chassis were produced in 5 plants, final assembly at three, you mention two of them, the third Murzzsulag in Austria d orders for 250 in 41, 150 a month in 42 and 300 a month till end of war and fulfilled by wars end 2322; including all of valiant 9, did you miss its contribution or abstract it’s role into the two?

Askeys is not an academic, unlike say Charles C Sharp with a far better multi volume work and lectures and teaches on TOE for Ww2, Its Askeys hobby, he uses others works as he cannot read non English primary material, he is not a trained historian, which is why his 251 numbers are far in excess of the number produced, as he cannot use primary sources.

I am without a pc with internet due to moving so only have the wife’s I pad, and posting links is beyond me on the I pad so more detailed stiff will have to wait till April when we exchange, do you have NARA online access? For instance it holds digital copies of all the First Panzer Div documents taken by at end of war to USA, and you can read online or download you also have the German Documents in Russia website for those taken by Russia if you don’t have it already.

I've pulled NARA rolls from Sturmpanzer, KSTNs from wwiidaybyday and have used the Russian site as well. Axis History Forums is a great place to get me started in areas of research as well.

ORIGINAL: Hanny

I am without a pc with internet due to moving so only have the wife’s I pad, and posting links is beyond me on the I pad so more detailed stiff will have to wait till April when we exchange, do you have NARA online access? For instance it holds digital copies of all the First Panzer Div documents taken by at end of war to USA, and you can read online or download you also have the German Documents in Russia website for those taken by Russia if you don’t have it already.

Hanny,

Your info on production numbers has piqued my interest (and signaled a more critical look at some of Askey's info);

I would like to begin looking at some primary german / soviet sources : any heads-up on where to start?

I gather NARA (which I've visited but have no clue / still learning how to navigate online...): is it possible to view some of the NARA docs online?

Any other that you might recommend? I've seen something called "Digital History Archive," they want 20-35 dollars (each) for sets of primary docs which they got from NARA, I'd rather not pay them if its something I can find myself.

http://www.digitalhistoryarchive.com/ww ... cords.html

The only primary source I own is Kriegstagebuch des OKW 1940-45.(Percy E Schramm)

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

I've pulled NARA rolls from Sturmpanzer, KSTNs from wwiidaybyday and have used the Russian site as well. Axis History Forums is a great place to get me started in areas of research as well

In the future I’ll post you links for search portals, in case you missed some.

You have mined the online material from Combined Arms Research Library (CARL) and It’s associated links I assume,(Office of the Historian, CSI, Fort Leavenworth ) along with UK National Archives, HMSO Official History series series, Fighting with Numbers has a lot of data in one place, and have access to JSTOR and Fold3 along with Internet Archive as a search portal. Most War Colleges and Universities have thesis published online from the course they teach, many authors first book is built on their thesis so you get that for free online, Collassal Cracks is one example, associated to that is the online required reading material that comes from the course being taken, some have a source packet to download with your reading requirements if it’s an online course, so you can see what literature is being used as teaching material. Have you considered contacting your local University etc for research privileges, you may need to take a course but it will open up free research rights, NARA rolls a viable online are but a fraction of those a viable to researchers if you have the access rights.

Endless ways to find stuff for free on the net, Hyperwar etc.

Official Histories are not so easy to find online so you have to get them hard copy,but worth the time.

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor

Hanny,

Your info on production numbers has piqued my interest (and signaled a more critical look at some of Askey's info);

I would like to begin looking at some primary german / soviet sources : any heads-up on where to start?

I gather NARA (which I've visited but have no clue / still learning how to navigate online...): is it possible to view some of the NARA docs online?

Any other that you might recommend? I've seen something called "Digital History Archive," they want 20-35 dollars (each) for sets of primary docs which they got from NARA, I'd rather not pay them if its something I can find myself.

http://www.digitalhistoryarchive.com/ww ... cords.html

The only primary source I own is Kriegstagebuch des OKW 1940-45.(Percy E Schramm)

Yes some researchers share online NARA rolls, so all can see them, others ask you to pay for them. I would start with Germany’s official History series.

Read everything by everyone*,pay for as little as you can, they prob got it for free why should you pay?, example the more or less Official History of the War Between the States is the OFficial Record of the Rebellion, by the War Dept, you can spend a great deal on eBay to get all vols hard copy, or you get them as a cd in pdf format for a fraction of the cost and have a search function to make researching easier, or you canget them for free as they are all avaiable online for free in the internet archive to read and download, along with enough other primary material to last you lifetime of research.

Askey is still a valuable resource, it just has some issues.

* You never know what interesting tidbit they know, example J Dunnigan Dirty Secrets of Ww2 which you can DL for free online easy enough, has the causal agent and number of German general officers killed or DOW, 110 Div 23 Korps 3 Army General 32% by air 14% by art 13% by small arms.

Thank you Hanny +1,

Speaking of secondary sources such as- Antony Beevor's Second World War, Ben H. Sheppard's "Hitler's Soldiers: the German Army in the Third Reich, and Peter Longerich's bio on Goebbels- all were horizon broadening for me. E.g, never realized how deep the triangular relationship of Magda/ Goebbels / Hitler was (and how manipulative Hitler was of a fawning J. Goebbels); not to mention how dead in the water Goebbels push for "Total War" was up to the end.

In addition, trying shed more light on soviet perspectives, through Glantz, but they make an academic journal like "journal of slavic military studies" (which is chockfull of interesting articles on Slavic perspective)-- prohibitively expensive to access (unless you are academically involved).

Did manage to acquire Charles Sharp's full set of volumes on Soviet order of battle on ebay though for a very reasonable amount.

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor

Thank you Hanny +1,

Speaking of secondary sources such as- Antony Beevor's Second World War, Ben H. Sheppard's "Hitler's Soldiers: the German Army in the Third Reich, and Peter Longerich's bio on Goebbels- all were horizon broadening for me. E.g, never realized how deep the triangular relationship of Magda/ Goebbels / Hitler was (and how manipulative Hitler was of a fawning J. Goebbels); not to mention how dead in the water Goebbels push for "Total War" was up to the end.

In addition, trying shed more light on soviet perspectives, through Glantz, but they make an academic journal like "journal of slavic military studies" (which is chockfull of interesting articles on Slavic perspective)-- prohibitively expensive to access (unless you are academically involved).

Did manage to acquire Charles Sharp's full set of volumes on Soviet order of battle on ebay though for a very reasonable amount.

Your welcome, you might find it useful to get a flash drive and join some WW2 forums, and copy paste online material for your use latter as many post online material you woul have to pay for, have translated for you and so on, for instance average advance rates on Eastern front by day and formation can be found in English from the Slavic Military Studies at Axis History forum and Russian Battlefield forums.

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

I've pulled NARA rolls from Sturmpanzer, KSTNs from wwiidaybyday and have used the Russian site as well. Axis History Forums is a great place to get me started in areas of research as well

Having the KSTN is only half the work mind you, Askey uses them to say there are 4 bridglayers to a Div in the TOE, but Krupp who built them issued 16 to 5 Pzr Divs, not all, in 1940 withdrew them all by end of year as the 28 ton payload was to small, and replaced with C variant, and issued 4 to Pzr Div 3 in June 41, so there were 4 in service in one Div, not 4 in all.

Ŷ

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

Can't answer the question on production

Please pass on to whose line it is, KFZ Der Wehrmacht ( goggle search will give you it online, it’s the tabulation by week for production your after) online production data by week, as the images posted appear to contain inaccurate weeks in production and production import numbers, start year.

Difference being 1400 from 4750 by 9/43, or 650 from 4750 by same date.

In witE2 we model chassis and aiframe production factories which is not always the same as assembly factories.
In case of halfracks we purely model the facs building the chassis but not the final assembly factories who added the armored body, weapons etc.
Aircraft and tanks are not easily separatable this way.
Tank facs usually got the armored body pre-fabricated from armor manufactorers and all else was added in large assembly factories. With the major work done at the assembly facs we model those.
Even worse with aircraft, they got so many major parts from multiple factories that were assembled in large assembly facs to produce the final aircraft. We still model the assembly facs but spread this out to locations known for producing large airframe parts. For example Junkers was known to have dedicated plants to produce Ju 88 wings, cockpits or fuselages and those are modeled too.

For the Sd. Kfz. 251 we have Hanomag, MNH, Adler, Auto Union but not Skoda. Not all at the same time though as some dropped out or changed to 251 production later in the war.