Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: Hrafnagud

You forgot to add this bit from the Wikipedia article you took your quotes from:

"For 54 years there was no definitive answer as to whether he had been brought down by friendly fire or the Japanese bomber's nose gunner. In 1997 the publication of the primary source for this article, Fateful Rendezvous: The Life of Butch O'Hare, by Steve Ewing and John B. Lundstrom (see References below) shed new light. Ewing and Lundstrom very clearly state, more than once, that Japanese guns, and not Kernan's, killed Butch O'Hare.

In Chapter 16, "What Happened to Butch," the authors write, "Butch fell to his old familiar adversary, a Betty. Most likely he died from or was immediately disabled by, a lucky shot from the forward observer crouched in the rikko's [Betty's] forward glassed-in nose...the nose gunner's 7.7mm slugs very likely penetrated Butch's cockpit from above on the port side and ahead of the F6F's armor plate."[42] In the Index, Ewing and Lundstrom flatly state that Kernan is "wrongly accused of shooting down Butch."[43]

Why the confusion for so many years? Ewing and Lundstrom point out that the "most influential and oft-cited" account of O'Hare's last mission came in a 1962 history of the Enterprise by CDR Edward P. Stafford, which relied on action reports and recollections of former Enterprise crew, but did not contain interviews with any of the living participants. By contrast, Ewing and Lundstrom came to their conclusions on what happened to Butch after interviewing the still-living survivors of O'Hare's last mission: F6F pilot Skon, TBF radar officer Rand, and TBF gunner Kernan. Ewing and Lundstrom write, "Through Stafford and other accounts based largely on the action reports, Butch has wrongly become known as one of America's most famous "friendly fire" casualties."[44]

Not sure I can find any "proof" in that quote. It was at night, he was in a cross-fire and we have no wreckage or body.

"Statements" in those conditions are not "proof".

We're waiting (with baited breath [8|] ) for a single shred of "proof" from you that he was killed by friendly fire. Until then, you can bugger off with your "Make a statement and then demand others provide proof that you are wrong" modus operandi. [>:]

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: tolsdorff

I think losses suffered during operation Cottage gives a very good impression of how easy friendly-fire incidents occur and how costly they are.


Never heard of this Butch fellow, but apparently he was caught in a cross-fire. Both sides were responsible for the kill. It is the sad reality of war.

He was credited for shooting down 5 Betty bombers by himself. Three definitely crashed because of his actions, one plane was so damaged that the pilot tried to crash it onto a ship but failed, while another one did not make back to the airfield and crashed in Simpson Harbor, a flooded caldera of a rather large volcano which is at Rabaul. I do believe that he then finished smoking his cigarette that he had just started on. He had 4 fifty caliber (12.7 mm) machine guns with 450 rounds each. His wingman airplane guns jammed and would not fire.

He used deflection shooting, that is coming at the side and I believe that he was also higher than his targets. Pilots who attacked from the rear sometimes ran into 20mm shells which would then explode, ruining their aircraft and sometimes their whole day.

The primary Chicago, Illinois, USA, commercial airport is named after him even though he grew up elsewhere but his father worked in Chicago for a few years. One of his clients had a little difficulty with the law, the client's name was Al Capone.

1. Credited is not the same as actual. 3 Actualy.
If the aircraft do not make it back to their airfield due to damage, that is a kill. Since he damaged one that another pilot shot down, then that is 5.5 kills in a single mission.

2. " Pilots who attacked from the rear sometimes ran into 20mm shells which would then explode"...pure speculation, which apparently is your specialty.
Why don't you look up the armament of the Betty and prove me wrong? Or are you stating that HE 20mm shells don't explode?[X(]

3."The primary Chicago, Illinois, USA, commercial airport is named after him even though he grew up elsewhere but his father worked in Chicago for a few years." FACT: He never lived in Chiraq, I mean Chicago.
I never stated the Butch lived in Chicago, I was referring to his father. Get your facts straight.

I get a kick out of your posts. So dramatic.

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe




He was credited for shooting down 5 Betty bombers by himself. Three definitely crashed because of his actions, one plane was so damaged that the pilot tried to crash it onto a ship but failed, while another one did not make back to the airfield and crashed in Simpson Harbor, a flooded caldera of a rather large volcano which is at Rabaul. I do believe that he then finished smoking his cigarette that he had just started on. He had 4 fifty caliber (12.7 mm) machine guns with 450 rounds each. His wingman airplane guns jammed and would not fire.

He used deflection shooting, that is coming at the side and I believe that he was also higher than his targets. Pilots who attacked from the rear sometimes ran into 20mm shells which would then explode, ruining their aircraft and sometimes their whole day.

The primary Chicago, Illinois, USA, commercial airport is named after him even though he grew up elsewhere but his father worked in Chicago for a few years. One of his clients had a little difficulty with the law, the client's name was Al Capone.

1. Credited is not the same as actual. 3 Actualy.
If the aircraft do not make it back to their airfield due to damage, that is a kill. Since he damaged one that another pilot shot down, then that is 5.5 kills in a single mission.

2. " Pilots who attacked from the rear sometimes ran into 20mm shells which would then explode"...pure speculation, which apparently is your specialty.
Why don't you look up the armament of the Betty and prove me wrong? Or are you stating that HE 20mm shells don't explode?[X(]

3."The primary Chicago, Illinois, USA, commercial airport is named after him even though he grew up elsewhere but his father worked in Chicago for a few years." FACT: He never lived in Chiraq, I mean Chicago.
I never stated the Butch lived in Chicago, I was referring to his father. Get your facts straight.

I get a kick out of your posts. So dramatic.

"At 16:49, the Lexington's radar picked up a second formation of Bettys from the 4th Kōkūtai's 1st Chutai, only 12 miles out, on the disengaged side of the task force. With the majority of VF-3 still chasing the 2nd Chutai, only O'Hare and Dufilho were available to intercept. Flying eastward they arrived 1,500 feet (460 m) above the Bettys 9 miles (14 km) out at 17:00. Dufilho's guns jammed, leaving only O'Hare to protect the carrier. The enemy was in a V-of-Vs formation, flying very close together and using their rear-facing 20mm cannon for mutual protection. O'Hare's Wildcat, armed with four 50-caliber guns, with 450 rounds per gun, giving him about ten, 3-second bursts. "

Sieg Heil und Sieg zum Frauleins!

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961




1. Credited is not the same as actual. 3 Actualy.
If the aircraft do not make it back to their airfield due to damage, that is a kill. Since he damaged one that another pilot shot down, then that is 5.5 kills in a single mission.

2. " Pilots who attacked from the rear sometimes ran into 20mm shells which would then explode"...pure speculation, which apparently is your specialty.
Why don't you look up the armament of the Betty and prove me wrong? Or are you stating that HE 20mm shells don't explode?[X(]

3."The primary Chicago, Illinois, USA, commercial airport is named after him even though he grew up elsewhere but his father worked in Chicago for a few years." FACT: He never lived in Chiraq, I mean Chicago.
I never stated the Butch lived in Chicago, I was referring to his father. Get your facts straight.

I get a kick out of your posts. So dramatic.

"At 16:49, the Lexington's radar picked up a second formation of Bettys from the 4th Kōkūtai's 1st Chutai, only 12 miles out, on the disengaged side of the task force. With the majority of VF-3 still chasing the 2nd Chutai, only O'Hare and Dufilho were available to intercept. Flying eastward they arrived 1,500 feet (460 m) above the Bettys 9 miles (14 km) out at 17:00. Dufilho's guns jammed, leaving only O'Hare to protect the carrier. The enemy was in a V-of-Vs formation, flying very close together and using their rear-facing 20mm cannon for mutual protection. O'Hare's Wildcat, armed with four 50-caliber guns, with 450 rounds per gun, giving him about ten, 3-second bursts. "

Sieg Heil und Sieg zum Frauleins!

you're ability to salute Hitler is discomforting.

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe




"At 16:49, the Lexington's radar picked up a second formation of Bettys from the 4th Kōkūtai's 1st Chutai, only 12 miles out, on the disengaged side of the task force. With the majority of VF-3 still chasing the 2nd Chutai, only O'Hare and Dufilho were available to intercept. Flying eastward they arrived 1,500 feet (460 m) above the Bettys 9 miles (14 km) out at 17:00. Dufilho's guns jammed, leaving only O'Hare to protect the carrier. The enemy was in a V-of-Vs formation, flying very close together and using their rear-facing 20mm cannon for mutual protection. O'Hare's Wildcat, armed with four 50-caliber guns, with 450 rounds per gun, giving him about ten, 3-second bursts. "

Sieg Heil und Sieg zum Frauleins!

you're ability to salute Hitler is discomforting.

What is your proof that I am saluting Hitler?

Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit

für das deutsche Vaterland!

Danach lasst uns alle streben

brüderlich mit Herz und Hand!

Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit

sind des Glückes Unterpfand.

Blüh im Glanze dieses Glückes,

blühe deutsches Vaterland!

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961





you're ability to salute Hitler is discomforting.

What is your proof that I am saluting Hitler?

Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit

für das deutsche Vaterland!

Danach lasst uns alle streben

brüderlich mit Herz und Hand!

Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit

sind des Glückes Unterpfand.

Blüh im Glanze dieses Glückes,

blühe deutsches Vaterland!

I sure hope the Southern Poverty Center doesn't learn about this post.

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!


From your mouth to God's ear, Nazi

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!


From your mouth to God's ear, Nazi

I would post some things but the moderator would not like to see them.

Heil zum:

Deutsche Frauen, deutsche Treue,
deutscher Wein und deutscher Sang
sollen in der Welt behalten
ihren alten schönen Klang,
uns zu edler Tat begeistern
unser ganzes Leben lang. -
|: Deutsche Frauen, deutsche Treue,
deutscher Wein und deutscher Sang!

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!


From your mouth to God's ear, Nazi

I would post some things but the moderator would not like to see them.

Heil zum:

Deutsche Frauen, deutsche Treue,
deutscher Wein und deutscher Sang
sollen in der Welt behalten
ihren alten schönen Klang,
uns zu edler Tat begeistern
unser ganzes Leben lang. -
|: Deutsche Frauen, deutsche Treue,
deutscher Wein und deutscher Sang!

You really don't have anything of value to my threads. Why the need for continuous attention? We're you sexually abused as a child because your trolling and stalking would indicate that.

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


1. Credited is not the same as actual. 3 Actualy.

2. " Pilots who attacked from the rear sometimes ran into 20mm shells which would then explode"...pure speculation, which apparently is your specialty.

3."The primary Chicago, Illinois, USA, commercial airport is named after him even though he grew up elsewhere but his father worked in Chicago for a few years." FACT: He never lived in Chiraq, I mean Chicago.

I get a kick out of your posts. So dramatic.

ORIGINAL: tolsdorff

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: tolsdorff

I think losses suffered during operation Cottage gives a very good impression of how easy friendly-fire incidents occur and how costly they are.


Never heard of this Butch fellow, but apparently he was caught in a cross-fire. Both sides were responsible for the kill. It is the sad reality of war.

He was credited for shooting down 5 Betty bombers by himself. Three definitely crashed because of his actions, one plane was so damaged that the pilot tried to crash it onto a ship but failed, while another one did not make back to the airfield and crashed in Simpson Harbor, a flooded caldera of a rather large volcano which is at Rabaul. I do believe that he then finished smoking his cigarette that he had just started on. He had 4 fifty caliber (12.7 mm) machine guns with 450 rounds each. His wingman airplane guns jammed and would not fire.

He used deflection shooting, that is coming at the side and I believe that he was also higher than his targets. Pilots who attacked from the rear sometimes ran into 20mm shells which would then explode, ruining their aircraft and sometimes their whole day.

The primary Chicago, Illinois, USA, commercial airport is named after him even though he grew up elsewhere but his father worked in Chicago for a few years. One of his clients had a little difficulty with the law, the client's name was Al Capone.

Ok, thanks. He shot them all down in 1 mission it seems? Quite impressive!

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


1. Credited is not the same as actual. 3 Actualy.

2. " Pilots who attacked from the rear sometimes ran into 20mm shells which would then explode"...pure speculation, which apparently is your specialty.

3."The primary Chicago, Illinois, USA, commercial airport is named after him even though he grew up elsewhere but his father worked in Chicago for a few years." FACT: He never lived in Chiraq, I mean Chicago.

I get a kick out of your posts. So dramatic.

Hi,

Your correct. "credited", also known as "confirmed" kills do not necessarily equate to actual kills. It just means the org the pilot was part of was validated by his org, at the time.

Post war research thus gets a lot of attention. because its convenient for I'm right, no IM right arguments for the credibility factor on forums as this. Just the way it is. The source most often used for O'Hare's act of valor (which it was IMO whether you credit him with 0, 3 or 5 kills) is Lundstrom. At this point his work is dated but I think still valid. I only mention dated as an irony given my shall we say, long history on forums. Often the year an author posted info was used as a weapon in such threads in the past.

What really makes for a noodle of a situation is that different nations credit kills based on slightly but relevently different criteria. For example, the Japanese considered any loss during a mission a "combat loss". Not so in other orgs. This can be important. aka the "op loss" vs a "combat loss". Personally, I have also noted the special circumstances that involve geographical situations such as all water operations, or jungle vs developed. etc.

According to Lundstrom's account, O'Hare definitively shot down 3 bombers and damaged 2 more. Even re-visiting his work. (yeah I own it), there's room for confusion because simple # counts don't completely match up. Part of the reason for this is multi participant actions against the same target. So who do you credit? the AA gunners, the SBD gunners involved? Its a quandary. Ultimately IMO it doesn't take away from his accomplishment. the MISSION....not the kill count is what matters. Lexington's pilots did their job that day. Results are all that matter. Lex survived.

However one wants to interpret the available account(s), and factoring in other more mundane facts...(positioning.......opportunity.....lack of fighter escort......the fact the bombers didn't have their preferred weapon), doesn't detract from not only O'Hare's accomplishment but the rest of his fellow pilots. It was......a sobering experience for the Japanese. This operation tends to lack attention due to more famous encounters but is worth study.

anyway. Cheers. As long as the history is remembered. Thats what is important these days.

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe




He was credited for shooting down 5 Betty bombers by himself. Three definitely crashed because of his actions, one plane was so damaged that the pilot tried to crash it onto a ship but failed, while another one did not make back to the airfield and crashed in Simpson Harbor, a flooded caldera of a rather large volcano which is at Rabaul. I do believe that he then finished smoking his cigarette that he had just started on. He had 4 fifty caliber (12.7 mm) machine guns with 450 rounds each. His wingman airplane guns jammed and would not fire.

He used deflection shooting, that is coming at the side and I believe that he was also higher than his targets. Pilots who attacked from the rear sometimes ran into 20mm shells which would then explode, ruining their aircraft and sometimes their whole day.

The primary Chicago, Illinois, USA, commercial airport is named after him even though he grew up elsewhere but his father worked in Chicago for a few years. One of his clients had a little difficulty with the law, the client's name was Al Capone.

1. Credited is not the same as actual. 3 Actualy.
If the aircraft do not make it back to their airfield due to damage, that is a kill. Since he damaged one that another pilot shot down, then that is 5.5 kills in a single mission.

2. " Pilots who attacked from the rear sometimes ran into 20mm shells which would then explode"...pure speculation, which apparently is your specialty.
Why don't you look up the armament of the Betty and prove me wrong? Or are you stating that HE 20mm shells don't explode?[X(]

3."The primary Chicago, Illinois, USA, commercial airport is named after him even though he grew up elsewhere but his father worked in Chicago for a few years." FACT: He never lived in Chiraq, I mean Chicago.
I never stated the Butch lived in Chicago, I was referring to his father. Get your facts straight.

I get a kick out of your posts. So dramatic.

"At 16:49, the Lexington's radar picked up a second formation of Bettys from the 4th Kōkūtai's 1st Chutai, only 12 miles out, on the disengaged side of the task force. With the majority of VF-3 still chasing the 2nd Chutai, only O'Hare and Dufilho were available to intercept. Flying eastward they arrived 1,500 feet (460 m) above the Bettys 9 miles (14 km) out at 17:00. Dufilho's guns jammed, leaving only O'Hare to protect the carrier. The enemy was in a V-of-Vs formation, flying very close together and using their rear-facing 20mm cannon for mutual protection. O'Hare's Wildcat, armed with four 50-caliber guns, with 450 rounds per gun, giving him about ten, 3-second bursts. "

Sieg Heil und Sieg zum Frauleins!

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: tolsdorff

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe




He was credited for shooting down 5 Betty bombers by himself. Three definitely crashed because of his actions, one plane was so damaged that the pilot tried to crash it onto a ship but failed, while another one did not make back to the airfield and crashed in Simpson Harbor, a flooded caldera of a rather large volcano which is at Rabaul. I do believe that he then finished smoking his cigarette that he had just started on. He had 4 fifty caliber (12.7 mm) machine guns with 450 rounds each. His wingman airplane guns jammed and would not fire.

He used deflection shooting, that is coming at the side and I believe that he was also higher than his targets. Pilots who attacked from the rear sometimes ran into 20mm shells which would then explode, ruining their aircraft and sometimes their whole day.

The primary Chicago, Illinois, USA, commercial airport is named after him even though he grew up elsewhere but his father worked in Chicago for a few years. One of his clients had a little difficulty with the law, the client's name was Al Capone.

Ok, thanks. He shot them all down in 1 mission it seems? Quite impressive!

Actually it was so impressive that it didn't happen. Ranger Joe's specialty is posting propaganda and lies.

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961




1. Credited is not the same as actual. 3 Actualy.
If the aircraft do not make it back to their airfield due to damage, that is a kill. Since he damaged one that another pilot shot down, then that is 5.5 kills in a single mission.

2. " Pilots who attacked from the rear sometimes ran into 20mm shells which would then explode"...pure speculation, which apparently is your specialty.
Why don't you look up the armament of the Betty and prove me wrong? Or are you stating that HE 20mm shells don't explode?[X(]

3."The primary Chicago, Illinois, USA, commercial airport is named after him even though he grew up elsewhere but his father worked in Chicago for a few years." FACT: He never lived in Chiraq, I mean Chicago.
I never stated the Butch lived in Chicago, I was referring to his father. Get your facts straight.

I get a kick out of your posts. So dramatic.

"At 16:49, the Lexington's radar picked up a second formation of Bettys from the 4th Kōkūtai's 1st Chutai, only 12 miles out, on the disengaged side of the task force. With the majority of VF-3 still chasing the 2nd Chutai, only O'Hare and Dufilho were available to intercept. Flying eastward they arrived 1,500 feet (460 m) above the Bettys 9 miles (14 km) out at 17:00. Dufilho's guns jammed, leaving only O'Hare to protect the carrier. The enemy was in a V-of-Vs formation, flying very close together and using their rear-facing 20mm cannon for mutual protection. O'Hare's Wildcat, armed with four 50-caliber guns, with 450 rounds per gun, giving him about ten, 3-second bursts. "

Sieg Heil und Sieg zum Frauleins!

"Sieg Heil" is a salute to Hitler. Why does Matrix tolerate Ranger Joe, a virulent anti-Semite?

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe




"At 16:49, the Lexington's radar picked up a second formation of Bettys from the 4th Kōkūtai's 1st Chutai, only 12 miles out, on the disengaged side of the task force. With the majority of VF-3 still chasing the 2nd Chutai, only O'Hare and Dufilho were available to intercept. Flying eastward they arrived 1,500 feet (460 m) above the Bettys 9 miles (14 km) out at 17:00. Dufilho's guns jammed, leaving only O'Hare to protect the carrier. The enemy was in a V-of-Vs formation, flying very close together and using their rear-facing 20mm cannon for mutual protection. O'Hare's Wildcat, armed with four 50-caliber guns, with 450 rounds per gun, giving him about ten, 3-second bursts. "

Sieg Heil und Sieg zum Frauleins!

"Sieg Heil" is a salute to Hitler. Why does Matrix tolerate Ranger Joe, a virulent anti-Semite?

You must be an expert on saluting Hitler. As far as the latter goes, why don't you ask them?

Hagel zum Frauleins!

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961





"Sieg Heil" is a salute to Hitler. Why does Matrix tolerate Ranger Joe, a virulent anti-Semite?

You must be an expert on saluting Hitler. As far as the latter goes, why don't you ask them?

Hagel zum Frauleins!

Dear Mr. Commie, with the whore commie avatar well known for spreading her legs for all of STAVKA...you salute Hitler. Why Matrix tolerates your pro-Nazi comment makes me wonder about Matrix.