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RE: What happened to the Zero Bonus in this game?

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:49 pm
by WriterNotViking
Two minor corrections:
ORIGINAL: Dan1977
Yes the Dutch aircraft were lighter because they mounted four .303 cal MG instead of the British & US versions with the .50 cal MG,

The Dutch B-339s were equipped with two .303 and two .50 caliber weapons. The Wikipedia article on the plane claims they carried four of the lighter guns, but the source referenced for this claim (The Loss of Java, P.C. Boer 2006) clearly lists the heavier armament. Earlier works by the same author give the same data. The point about differing levels of protection is entirely valid.
ORIGINAL: Hrafnagud
[...]and even the export Curtiss Hawks could perform adequately with Zeroes and Oscars in a dogfight but they faced numerical superiority and were whittled down.

Unfortunately, by the time the war started, the Hawks had been in service for some time and their engines were nearly worn out. They first saw action in 3 February 1942 during a Japanese raid on Maospati airfield by 27 G4Ms, 17 A6Ms, and a single C5M observer. The Hawk pilots had little warning and were forced to take off while bombs were already falling.

Two of the eight combat-ready aircraft suffered engine failures shortly after takeoff and the pilots were forced to return to base. Both were attacked by Zeroes while trying to land, but both pilots managed to land their planes before they went up in flames, and both managed to get out alive by jumping out of their burning, still-moving fighters.

Of the other six, the group commander broke off and attacked a group of six Zeroes by himself (likely no one followed him due to poor commmunications caused by weather) which cost him his life, and the remaining five attacked the retreating bombers. They were recalled before engaging and directed to Soerabaja to defend against another air raid, but only three received this message. Two of those were shot down on their way to Soerabaja when they ran into eight Zeroes. The third, which made it to Soerabaja, was flown by Sergeant De Wilde, who managed to surprise two Zeroes:
He surprised the Japanese fighters and believed he had hit both. One of the Japanese fighters turned away. De Wilde noticed in the dogfight with the second Navy o that his Hawk was the lesser. He withdrew from the fight with a steep dive. His craft had nearly no ammunition and fuel left, reason why he landed at Perak.

The two Hawks who did not receive the recall order fired all their ammunition at the retreating G4Ms at Maospati, damaging five, but all bombers managed to return to base.

Only two Hawks remained operational after this day, although ground crews were working on another five. Work was slow because many Indonesian workers stopped showing up, the state of the engines was poor, and reserve engines were not available. On 5 February the Japanese attacked Soerabaja again, and the two operational Hawks were among the Dutch fighters sent to intercept. Zeroes found them first; one was shot down immediately, the other barely escaped with heavy damage after fifteen minutes of treetop-level maneuvering. Pilot Sergeant Hermans managed a wheels-up landing at Maospati and walked away, but the plane was totalled.

After this, the Hawks were forbidden to take off until at least six were combat-ready, but by 18 February Commando Militaire Luchtvaart (Military Aviation Command) ordered that the Hawks not be used operationally again, due to severely unreliable engines.

The Brewsters more than held their own during the war and, as said elsewhere, were hampered mostly by circumstance and numerical inferiority. The Interceptors also had their brief but spectacular moment of glory, but the Hawks were sadly unsuited for frontline service even before the first shots were fired. It hurts to think of these brave men who had to take to the air and face a numerically and qualitatively superior enemy in such unreliable machines.

Source: De luchtstrijd om Indiƫ, P.C. Boer et al., unavailable in English to my knowledge, which is a shame because it and its companion about the fight over Borneo are fantastic works.

Dutch Hawks in better days:

Image

RE: What happened to the Zero Bonus in this game?

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:18 am
by Buckrock
Some of what you mentioned at least is repeated in Boer's "The Loss of Java" which is available in English. I got hold of it a while ago to complete the DEI operational picture as I already had read US, Commonwealth and Japanese accounts of the final military operations. Very informative. More analytical than a straight narrative, which is what I was after.

RE: What happened to the Zero Bonus in this game?

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:42 am
by Sardaukar
Some might also want to read Japanese official history about DEI operations:

https://www.cortsfoundation.org/about-u ... nshi-sosho

Couple of volumes translated to English (rarity) out of official Senshi Sosho's (Japan's official military history) 102(!) volumes (that is 60 000+ pages altogether).

RE: What happened to the Zero Bonus in this game?

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:41 pm
by WriterNotViking
ORIGINAL: Buckrock

Some of what you mentioned at least is repeated in Boer's "The Loss of Java" which is available in English. I got hold of it a while ago to complete the DEI operational picture as I already had read US, Commonwealth and Japanese accounts of the final military operations. Very informative. More analytical than a straight narrative, which is what I was after.

I agree, it's a great work. The author gives a clear picture of just how close the struggle actually was, how great opportunities were wasted on the Dutch side due to poor communications and leadership at high levels, and how each side's respective use of air power proved decisive. For whatever reason, though, the author concentrates on the battle at the Tjiater pass and the battles leading up to it, to the complete neglect of ground operations in the east of Java. If anyone knows of a good source (English or Dutch), I'd be grateful for a link.

I have "Every day a nightmare" by Bartsch for the US perspective on the air war and a link to Japanese sources has been posted, but I'd love to hear what you read for the Commonwealth account. Does Bloody Shambles vol. 2 cover operations in Indonesia? Still need to read the series.
ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Some might also want to read Japanese official history about DEI operations:

https://www.cortsfoundation.org/about-u ... nshi-sosho

Couple of volumes translated to English (rarity) out of official Senshi Sosho's (Japan's official military history) 102(!) volumes (that is 60 000+ pages altogether).

This looks like a great resource. Thanks for posting the link.

RE: What happened to the Zero Bonus in this game?

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:51 pm
by Buckrock
ORIGINAL: WriterNotViking

I agree, it's a great work. The author gives a clear picture of just how close the struggle actually was, how great opportunities were wasted on the Dutch side due to poor communications and leadership at high levels, and how each side's respective use of air power proved decisive. For whatever reason, though, the author concentrates on the battle at the Tjiater pass and the battles leading up to it, to the complete neglect of ground operations in the east of Java. If anyone knows of a good source (English or Dutch), I'd be grateful for a link.
Don't know of any books that comprehensively focus on the whole ground campaign in Java from the Dutch perspective. I've seen a few articles in historical journals that touch on aspects of the campaign but none that put it all together with high detail.
I have "Every day a nightmare" by Bartsch for the US perspective on the air war and a link to Japanese sources has been posted, but I'd love to hear what you read for the Commonwealth account. Does Bloody Shambles vol. 2 cover operations in Indonesia? Still need to read the series.
Shores Volume 2 covers the Feb/Mar air campaign over Java solidly for the Commonwealth (as well as the other participants) but it can make for dry reading at times. Still one of the best works around though. I've also used the British Archives about 10 years ago to access various records of the RAF Command and squadrons involved but that's not a fun way to get more details. The Archives do have a lot of those records digitalized and online now but you have to pay for access/download (and know what records you need in advance).

RE: What happened to the Zero Bonus in this game?

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:28 pm
by Nikademus
ORIGINAL: Buckrock

Some of what you mentioned at least is repeated in Boer's "The Loss of Java" which is available in English. I got hold of it a while ago to complete the DEI operational picture as I already had read US, Commonwealth and Japanese accounts of the final military operations. Very informative. More analytical than a straight narrative, which is what I was after.

hmmm. sounds interesting. sadly only paperback version. oh well. I can add it to the Bergstrom volumes and the BoB book ordered.



RE: What happened to the Zero Bonus in this game?

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:55 pm
by WriterNotViking
ORIGINAL: Buckrock

Shores Volume 2 covers the Feb/Mar air campaign over Java solidly for the Commonwealth (as well as the other participants) but it can make for dry reading at times. Still one of the best works around though. I've also used the British Archives about 10 years ago to access various records of the RAF Command and squadrons involved but that's not a fun way to get more details. The Archives do have a lot of those records digitalized and online now but you have to pay for access/download (and know what records you need in advance).

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll keep an eye out for a reasonably-priced copy.

RE: What happened to the Zero Bonus in this game?

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:28 pm
by fcooke
I thought Shambles was really detailed, maybe that's why it might come across as dry. As far as the game goes I had an a player hitting Balikpaken every day with close to a hundred Netties, but after a month he dropped the escort. I had been saving and training all my Dutch fighters and then launched an ambush in Feb 42. About 100 Dutch fighters against 100ish Netties. About 50% of the Netties did not get home. But tactics matter. I'm sure Gladiators could have taken out a similar number if used in bulk.

RE: What happened to the Zero Bonus in this game?

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:27 pm
by Nikademus
Shores is "dry" because his first and foremost objective as author and researcher/research lead is to just present the facts, interspaced in places with classic restrained English humor. In comparison, Lundstrom, was presenting a biopic of the USN fighter VF's in the period covered, the "First Team" so there's a lot of storytelling inserted along with the research he did.

Think of it as looking thru combat records. its a long and tedious job and best taken in spurts. I just got my copy of BoB: then and now. THAT lot put Shores to shame. pages on pages on pages of records for every combat aircraft they could find data on presented concisely but in detail. in very very small print and no storytelling whatsoever.

Yikes. :). but it beats watching C-SPAN. mostly. [:'(]

RE: What happened to the Zero Bonus in this game?

Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:15 pm
by fcooke
I liked both the Shores and Lundstrom works. And I would rather read a dictionary than C-SPAN. At least the dictionary could teach me new words.

RE: What happened to the Zero Bonus in this game?

Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:48 pm
by geofflambert
ORIGINAL: Hrafnagud

Most of it comes down to pilot quality, numerical parity and suitable tactics. The Dutch CW-21s and even the export Curtiss Hawks could perform adequately with Zeroes and Oscars in a dogfight but they faced numerical superiority and were whittled down.

Are you saying this is a Zero sum game?

RE: What happened to the Zero Bonus in this game?

Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:24 pm
by BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: geofflambert

ORIGINAL: Hrafnagud

Most of it comes down to pilot quality, numerical parity and suitable tactics. The Dutch CW-21s and even the export Curtiss Hawks could perform adequately with Zeroes and Oscars in a dogfight but they faced numerical superiority and were whittled down.

Are you saying this is a Zero sum game?
Depends who is playing.



For my play, it's more like Dim Sum.

Image

RE: What happened to the Zero Bonus in this game?

Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:45 pm
by RangerJoe
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

ORIGINAL: Hrafnagud

Most of it comes down to pilot quality, numerical parity and suitable tactics. The Dutch CW-21s and even the export Curtiss Hawks could perform adequately with Zeroes and Oscars in a dogfight but they faced numerical superiority and were whittled down.

Are you saying this is a Zero sum game?
Depends who is playing.



For my play, it's more like Dim Sum.

Image

I will not argue with you . . . [:-]

RE: What happened to the Zero Bonus in this game?

Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:43 pm
by rustysi
In addressing the original post, there was never a Zero 'bonus'.

RE: What happened to the Zero Bonus in this game?

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:39 am
by Tanaka
ORIGINAL: rustysi

In addressing the original post, there was never a Zero 'bonus'.

I was remembering the original game WITP where there was. Had forgotten they had taken it out in WITPAE:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... ey=�

RE: What happened to the Zero Bonus in this game?

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:42 pm
by rustysi
I was remembering the original game WITP where there was.

I don't recall one there either. Then again when was the last time I played that game? I do have the disk around here somewhere.[:D]

RE: What happened to the Zero Bonus in this game?

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:46 pm
by geofflambert
Yes, the manual for WitP clearly states "There is zero bonus ..."

RE: What happened to the Zero Bonus in this game?

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:46 pm
by RangerJoe
ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Yes, the manual for WitP clearly states "There is zero bonus ..."

The importance of not having "a" in that sentence is very important.