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RE: 3 Group Unit Parts but two are [S] and (R)

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 7:05 am
by Uncivil Engineer
ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Air units that have "Det." as part of their names are permanently detached and cannot be recombined. Usually the type of aircraft they fly and their upgrade paths are completely different from the "parent" unit.

I think this is incorrect. Air detachments can be reattached IF the aircraft types are the same. I'm currently playing DBB-C and this particular unit is at Taihoku (all 3 parts). The base unit and one detachment have been changed from Nates to Oscars while the other detachment is still Babs. I have the option to reattach the Oscar detachment now. All three will be able to upgrade to Nicks when that type is sufficiently available. And THEN the whole unit can be combined, if desired. As others have said, this unit can fly to any General Defense base, which is Formosa and all 4 islands of Japan.


RE: 3 Group Unit Parts but two are [S] and (R)

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:50 am
by geofflambert
ORIGINAL: Tanaka

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Air units that have "Det." as part of their names are permanently detached and cannot be recombined. Usually the type of aircraft they fly and their upgrade paths are completely different from the "parent" unit.

Good tip to know thanks! That explains the Yamada Det!

Late in the war I've gotten some like that that are /A, /B and /C but they won't combine. The tip-off is that you're allowed to divide them into 3 parts. You can't trust the names. For instance, no gorn has a name like geofflambert. I just made that up to conceal my real secret name.

RE: 3 Group Unit Parts but two are [S] and (R)

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:54 am
by geofflambert
ORIGINAL: Uncivil Engineer

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Air units that have "Det." as part of their names are permanently detached and cannot be recombined. Usually the type of aircraft they fly and their upgrade paths are completely different from the "parent" unit.

I think this is incorrect. Air detachments can be reattached IF the aircraft types are the same. I'm currently playing DBB-C and this particular unit is at Taihoku (all 3 parts). The base unit and one detachment have been changed from Nates to Oscars while the other detachment is still Babs. I have the option to reattach the Oscar detachment now. All three will be able to upgrade to Nicks when that type is sufficiently available. And THEN the whole unit can be combined, if desired. As others have said, this unit can fly to any General Defense base, which is Formosa and all 4 islands of Japan.


Well, it's correct some of the time or most of the time. And the ones that it is the case for cannot under any circumstances have the same aircraft. For instance, the DET can only have recon aircraft but the parent can only be bombers.

RE: 3 Group Unit Parts but two are [S] and (R)

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:49 pm
by geofflambert
I didn't find the recon vs. fighter detachment, it may have been withdrawn. Here are some peculiarities I did find.

Image

RE: 3 Group Unit Parts but two are [S] and (R)

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:49 pm
by geofflambert
and

Image

RE: 3 Group Unit Parts but two are [S] and (R)

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:50 pm
by geofflambert
and

Image

RE: 3 Group Unit Parts but two are [S] and (R)

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:32 pm
by Tanaka
ORIGINAL: Uncivil Engineer

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Air units that have "Det." as part of their names are permanently detached and cannot be recombined. Usually the type of aircraft they fly and their upgrade paths are completely different from the "parent" unit.

I think this is incorrect. Air detachments can be reattached IF the aircraft types are the same. I'm currently playing DBB-C and this particular unit is at Taihoku (all 3 parts). The base unit and one detachment have been changed from Nates to Oscars while the other detachment is still Babs. I have the option to reattach the Oscar detachment now. All three will be able to upgrade to Nicks when that type is sufficiently available. And THEN the whole unit can be combined, if desired. As others have said, this unit can fly to any General Defense base, which is Formosa and all 4 islands of Japan.


Interesting. I wonder why the group is different in DBB-C?

RE: 3 Group Unit Parts but two are [S] and (R)

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:53 pm
by RangerJoe
You would have to ask them there.

RE: 3 Group Unit Parts but two are [S] and (R)

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 8:02 pm
by Ian R
ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Well, it's correct some of the time or most of the time. And the ones that it is the case for cannot under any circumstances have the same aircraft. For instance, the DET can only have recon aircraft but the parent can only be bombers.

Yes, that is one example of a no-go situation.

Open the editor and look at the IJN air group line #007 (scenario 1 stock).

Chitose Ku S-1 Det in the "parent" line has a box marked "6", and next to it displays the parent as Chitose Ku S-1, which is on line #006.

These two units start flying Claudes on Roi-Namur and Maloelap. If you fly them all onto one island, the detachment can be reattached. (I just tested that to make sure).

Here is another interesting point - the parent formation has a withdraw date, 450505, and a return marked 9999, i.e. it's a "P" withdraw. The detachment has no withdraw date set. However, when you open up the detachment group screen at Maloelap, it also is marked "(Remove by 5 May,1945, P)", so it picks up the parent date. Very neat coding.

Now please shift attention to line #039 - Kanoya Ku K-1 Det. This has no parent formation set. The Kanoya Ku K-1 group is in line #038. These units have different HQs but are both flying the G4M-1. If you fly the detachment down to Saigon where the not-parent is, change its HQ to 22nd Air Flotilla, you confirm what the absence of a parent formation in the group settings already tells you - they don't re-attach. Further examination of the unit settings in the editor does tell you that the Kanoya Ku K-1 Det withdraws on 420310, and a few weeks later on 420401 the not-parent gets an upsize from 27 to 36 airframes (still less than the combined number in the two starting groups). So the air team were doing something different with that group/detachment to get to that end result and take it out of the players' hands. More about group sizes later.

While you are in Saigon, check out the Genzan KuK-1. The "Unit OOB" button is lit up and tells you there is a detachment, also at Saigon. It's re-attach button is available because the child has a parent nominated on the group screen in the editor, everyone is flying the same plane, and has the same HQ. Change the HQ to 21st AF, and the reattach button disappears. Change it back to 22nd AF like the parent and it is available again.

Bottom line is, you could have a uniquely named air group called the "Taranaki Girl Scouts Gliding Club" or something, but if it has a parent unit set in the editor, if it has a common aircraft type set, and if it has the same HQ, it will reattach to the parent. After it reattaches, whether the parent can split again is dependent on a different unit setting - the max splits. In the above examples, the Chitose Ku S-1 has max splits set at ZERO, so once reassembled it stays that way.

Last point - the maximum airframes is whatever the parent is set to in the editor, minus the size of the detachments. The Chitose Ku S-1 has a maximum of 27 aircraft (changes to 36 in 1942). In stock, the detachment at Maleolap has a size of 9 aircraft, and that is deducted from the parent maxium size. Likewise, with the various late game USMC CVS groups that have a fighter squadron, possibly a 9 airframe night fighter detachment, and a 2-plane recon detachment, the maximum operational machines the parent can use is its maximum size, less the combined size of the detachments, and that is noted on the airgroup screen up near the top left hand corner.

Hopefully that helps clear away the fog. It took me a while to get across all the nuances of this when I was building my modified scenario, but there is a mathematical logic to it which at some point "clicks" and it becomes intuitive.

Edit: Punctuation.

RE: 3 Group Unit Parts but two are [S] and (R)

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:54 pm
by Tanaka
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

You would have to ask them there.

Oh they have their own forum?

RE: 3 Group Unit Parts but two are [S] and (R)

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:57 pm
by Tanaka
ORIGINAL: Ian R
ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Well, it's correct some of the time or most of the time. And the ones that it is the case for cannot under any circumstances have the same aircraft. For instance, the DET can only have recon aircraft but the parent can only be bombers.

Yes, that is one example of a no-go situation.

Open the editor and look at the IJN air group line #007 (scenario 1 stock).

Chitose Ku S-1 Det in the "parent" line has a box marked "6", and next to it displays the parent as Chitose Ku S-1, which is on line #006.

These two units start flying Claudes on Roi-Namur and Maloelap. If you fly them all onto one island, the detachment can be reattached. (I just tested that to make sure).

Here is another interesting point - the parent formation has a withdraw date, 450505, and a return marked 9999, i.e. it's a "P" withdraw. The detachment has no withdraw date set. However, when you open up the detachment group screen at Maloelap, it also is marked "(Remove by 5 May,1945, P)", so it picks up the parent date. Very neat coding.

Now please shift attention to line #039 - Kanoya Ku K-1 Det. This has no parent formation set. The Kanoya Ku K-1 group is in line #038. These units have different HQs but are both flying the G4M-1. If you fly the detachment down to Saigon where the not-parent is, change its HQ to 22nd Air Flotilla, you confirm what the absence of a parent formation in the group settings already tells you - they don't re-attach. Further examination of the unit settings in the editor does tell you that the Kanoya Ku K-1 Det withdraws on 420310, and a few weeks later on 420401 the not-parent gets an upsize from 27 to 36 airframes (still less than the combined number in the two starting groups). So the air team were doing something different with that group/detachment to get to that end result and take it out of the players' hands. More about group sizes later.

While you are in Saigon, check out the Genzan KuK-1. The "Unit OOB" button is lit up and tells you there is a detachment, also at Saigon. It's re-attach button is available because the child has a parent nominated on the group screen in the editor, everyone is flying the same plane, and has the same HQ. Change the HQ to 21st AF, and the reattach button disappears. Change it back to 22nd AF like the parent and it is available again.

Bottom line is, you could have a uniquely named air group called the "Taranaki Girl Scouts Gliding Club" or something, but if it has a parent unit set in the editor, if it has a common aircraft type set, and if it has the same HQ, it will reattach to the parent. After it reattaches, whether the parent can split again is dependent on a different unit setting - the max splits. In the above examples, the Chitose Ku S-1 has max splits set at ZERO, so once reassembled it stays that way.

Last point - the maximum airframes is whatever the parent is set to in the editor, minus the size of the detachments. The Chitose Ku S-1 has a maximum of 27 aircraft (changes to 36 in 1942). In stock, the detachment at Maleolap has a size of 9 aircraft, and that is deducted from the parent maxium size. Likewise, with the various late game USMC CVS groups that have a fighter squadron, possibly a 9 airframe night fighter detachment, and a 2-plane recon detachment, the maximum operational machines the parent can use is its maximum size, less the combined size of the detachments, and that is noted on the airgroup screen up near the top left hand corner.

Hopefully that helps clear away the fog. It took me a while to get across all the nuances of this when I was building my modified scenario, but there is a mathematical logic to it which at some point "clicks" and it becomes intuitive.

Edit: Punctuation.

Interesting! Did not realize you possibly could not reattach them!

RE: 3 Group Unit Parts but two are [S] and (R)

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:15 pm
by BBfanboy
In the database, the sub-unit must show an assigned parent unit before it can combine. Those that do not were probably historically assigned in different areas and not able to join the rest of the unit with the same squadron designation, so that relationship was not shown in the database. You can easily change that in a mod, of course, but the aircraft type/model still need to be the same to get the combination to happen.

RE: 3 Group Unit Parts but two are [S] and (R)

Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:04 am
by RangerJoe
ORIGINAL: Tanaka

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

You would have to ask them there.

Oh they have their own forum?

They have their own site.

RE: 3 Group Unit Parts but two are [S] and (R)

Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:55 am
by Ian R
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

In the database, the sub-unit must show an assigned parent unit before it can combine. Those that do not were probably historically assigned in different areas and not able to join the rest of the unit with the same squadron designation, so that relationship was not shown in the database. You can easily change that in a mod, of course, but the aircraft type/model still need to be the same to get the combination to happen.

Also, in one of my examples, the air team used a non reattaching detachment with its own withdraw date, followed by the not-defined-as-a-parent parent group resizing to a a larger size, to get to a specific result. I think of at least one other way to do that with respect to the maximum group size, whilst leaving the reattachment at player discretion, but obviously they didn't want that.

RE: 3 Group Unit Parts but two are [S] and (R)

Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:58 am
by Uncivil Engineer
ORIGINAL: Tanaka

ORIGINAL: Uncivil Engineer

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Air units that have "Det." as part of their names are permanently detached and cannot be recombined. Usually the type of aircraft they fly and their upgrade paths are completely different from the "parent" unit.

I think this is incorrect. Air detachments can be reattached IF the aircraft types are the same. I'm currently playing DBB-C and this particular unit is at Taihoku (all 3 parts). The base unit and one detachment have been changed from Nates to Oscars while the other detachment is still Babs. I have the option to reattach the Oscar detachment now. All three will be able to upgrade to Nicks when that type is sufficiently available. And THEN the whole unit can be combined, if desired. As others have said, this unit can fly to any General Defense base, which is Formosa and all 4 islands of Japan.


Interesting. I wonder why the group is different in DBB-C?

Maybe because the mod fixed what they saw as an obvious problem. I don't know for sure, as I had nothing to do with creating the mod, I'm just playing it.