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RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:06 pm
by Lowpe
Additionally, you need to watch malaria...and fly them from large well staffed air bases in the monsoon areas. I believe size 5+ is what you need there.
RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:05 pm
by BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: Lowpe
Additionally, you need to watch malaria...and fly them from large well staffed air bases in the monsoon areas. I believe size 5+ is what you need there.
Malarial effects are not totally suppressed until level 9 development (AF + port). But you are right that around level 5 the effects are much less severe than at level 1 or 2. And some locations in the malarial zones are worse than others. Places in open terrain are often less badly affected than places in Jungle or Swamp terrain.
RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:13 pm
by Nomad
ORIGINAL: geofflambert
Is what is being described in reference to weather apply equally when the transport mission is to a friendly airbase as compared to air-drop? I think I've noticed that transport missions of greater distance will occur when to a friendly airbase.
You can air transport supply, from a 1+ base to a 1+ base, up to 50% of max range.
you can air drop supply, for a 1+ base to any hex, up to normal range.
See michaelms post in this thread
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2483507
RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:29 pm
by CaptBeefheart
They say when the last 747 is flown to the boneyard the flight crew will be brought back in a DC-3. Years ago I worked at Douglas in Long Beach and my boss mentioned that when Donald Douglas designed the DC-3, he used a safety factor of 30% for the structure. That and the lack of pressure cycles means metal fatigue pretty much doesn't exist for that bird. You'll probably see them flying from unimproved strips in Africa and South America for another 50 years.
Back to the game: I try not to micromanage air supply ops, but 30% rest seems to keep ops losses fairly reasonable.
Cheers,
CB
RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates
Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:36 am
by Yaab
OK, I give up.
My DC-2s fly in Clear/Partly Cloudy weather and BAM! An ops loss. Plane fatigue under 10, and still a DC-2 is a total write-off in just one turn.
I am clutching at the straws here, but my last theory is that transport aircraft follow the level bomber airfield equation as per manual p.213, and this feature failed to be documented for transport aircraft.
Thus, a DC-2 with load of 2400 points, should use airfield 4, possibly on both ends.
Level bombers require an airfield equal to size 4 + (bomb load / 6500) rounded down.
DC-2 (load 2400)
4 +(2400/6500) =4 + 0,36= 4,36 =rounded down =4
Right now, I fly from Ledo(airfield 3) to Myitkina (airfield 2), and the loss rate is not sustainble (2 aircraft lost in just 5 mission days)
RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates
Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:54 am
by BBfanboy
Yaab, where did you get the Size 4 AF as a start point for calculating the Level Bomber AF size? A single engined bomber like the Wirraway, Mary, Sonia and Ida is a level bomber and most certainly do not need a level 4 AF. Level 2 is the minimum for an offensive mission, so that seems like a good start point for the calculation.
Also, you get info on the weather at target in the combat report, but you never know the weather at your originating base. Taking off on wet and windy runways is always dicey!
RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates
Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:34 pm
by Lowpe
ORIGINAL: Yaab
OK, I give up.
My DC-2s fly in Clear/Partly Cloudy weather and BAM! An ops loss. Plane fatigue under 10, and still a DC-2 is a total write-off in just one turn.
I am clutching at the straws here, but my last theory is that transport aircraft follow the level bomber airfield equation as per manual p.213, and this feature failed to be documented for transport aircraft.
Thus, a DC-2 with load of 2400 points, should use airfield 4, possibly on both ends.
Level bombers require an airfield equal to size 4 + (bomb load / 6500) rounded down.
DC-2 (load 2400)
4 +(2400/6500) =4 + 0,36= 4,36 =rounded down =4
Right now, I fly from Ledo(airfield 3) to Myitkina (airfield 2), and the loss rate is not sustainble (2 aircraft lost in just 5 mission days)
Is it monsoon season?
From the patch notes:
71. Tweak Added monsoon effect to aircraft support affecting AF (0-4) service level
"In the latest beta (1108q9), I have also added monsoons to Aviation Support and Pilot fatigue recovery after watching several old newsreels on the Burma Campaign.
During the monsoon period and at bases where monsoons have affect, if the AF is less than level 5, the pilots of groups stationed there gain some fatigue and the Service Level of the AF for maintaining a/c is lowered affecting repair/maint.
I have only included less developed AFs as more developed AF should have better repair/maintence facilities and better accomodation for the pilots to counter such affects."
_____________________________
Michael
A quick example...probably more there
RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates
Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:34 pm
by RangerJoe
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Yaab, where did you get the Size 4 AF as a start point for calculating the Level Bomber AF size? A single engined bomber like the Wirraway, Mary, Sonia and Ida is a level bomber and most certainly do not need a level 4 AF. Level 2 is the minimum for an offensive mission, so that seems like a good start point for the calculation.
Also, you get info on the weather at target in the combat report, but you never know the weather at your originating base. Taking off on wet and windy runways is always dicey!
No it is not. It is fun to hydroplane from a large puddle at speeds of 50 mph+ or 80 kph+ and then hit a relatively dry spot . . . [;)]
RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates
Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:49 pm
by Lowpe
I have no clue if it is meaningful or just a default number but tracker has the required size for all transports at AF size 2.
RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates
Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:18 pm
by Treetop64
I suspect it's a bug, miscalculated coefficient, etc. of some kind. Ops losses are inevitable but frankly the C-47 losses are ridiculous.
Literally all other transport groups on the entire map go unused or are stuck with training, including 272 Fifth AF C-47s in the SW Pacific, because the aircraft replacement rate barely keeps up with absurdly high ops losses of four squadrons in SE Asia and two in China. That, even with a 30% rest setting at Lvl 7 bases (and building) for those units. The smallest supply destination airbase is a Lvl 4. And they're not even flying over the Hump.
RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates
Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 7:53 am
by Yaab
ORIGINAL: Lowpe
I have no clue if it is meaningful or just a default number but tracker has the required size for all transports at AF size 2.
It also has airfield 4 for light bombers, so Tracker cannot process the relevant data correctly.
RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates
Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 7:56 am
by Yaab
ORIGINAL: Lowpe
ORIGINAL: Yaab
OK, I give up.
My DC-2s fly in Clear/Partly Cloudy weather and BAM! An ops loss. Plane fatigue under 10, and still a DC-2 is a total write-off in just one turn.
I am clutching at the straws here, but my last theory is that transport aircraft follow the level bomber airfield equation as per manual p.213, and this feature failed to be documented for transport aircraft.
Thus, a DC-2 with load of 2400 points, should use airfield 4, possibly on both ends.
Level bombers require an airfield equal to size 4 + (bomb load / 6500) rounded down.
DC-2 (load 2400)
4 +(2400/6500) =4 + 0,36= 4,36 =rounded down =4
Right now, I fly from Ledo(airfield 3) to Myitkina (airfield 2), and the loss rate is not sustainble (2 aircraft lost in just 5 mission days)
Is it monsoon season?
From the patch notes:
71. Tweak Added monsoon effect to aircraft support affecting AF (0-4) service level
"In the latest beta (1108q9), I have also added monsoons to Aviation Support and Pilot fatigue recovery after watching several old newsreels on the Burma Campaign.
During the monsoon period and at bases where monsoons have affect, if the AF is less than level 5, the pilots of groups stationed there gain some fatigue and the Service Level of the AF for maintaining a/c is lowered affecting repair/maint.
I have only included less developed AFs as more developed AF should have better repair/maintence facilities and better accomodation for the pilots to counter such affects."
_____________________________
Michael
A quick example...probably more there
No, monsoon is May-October. It is still, unsurprisingly, December 1941 in my game.
RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates
Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:02 am
by Yaab
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Yaab, where did you get the Size 4 AF as a start point for calculating the Level Bomber AF size? A single engined bomber like the Wirraway, Mary, Sonia and Ida is a level bomber and most certainly do not need a level 4 AF. Level 2 is the minimum for an offensive mission, so that seems like a good start point for the calculation.
Also, you get info on the weather at target in the combat report, but you never know the weather at your originating base. Taking off on wet and windy runways is always dicey!
Manual, page 213. The formula is for medium and heavy bombers. Maybe it also affects transport aircraft?
Re: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates
Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:41 pm
by Yaab
Think I have found the answer.
You need to have ADEQUATE aviation support numbers at both bases.
Say, you want to fly 50 transport aircraft on the Ledo-Chengdu route on daily basis. You have 50 (or more) Aviation Support in Ledo. You need also to amass 50 Aviation Support in Chengdu to reduce the op losses.
I am running a tailored air group on a Ledo-Burma route and I have finally reduced my op losses to 0.
Wish this info was in the manual!
Re: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates
Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:07 pm
by Platoonist
Yaab wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:41 pm
Think I have found the answer.
You need to have ADEQUATE aviation support numbers at both bases.
Say, you want to fly 50 transport aircraft on the Ledo-Chengdu route on daily basis. You have 50 (or more) Aviation Support in Ledo. You need also to amass 50 Aviation Support in Chengdu to reduce the op losses.
I am running a tailored air group on a Ledo-Burma route and I have finally reduced my op losses to 0.
Wish this info was in the manual!
Eureka! If it turns out to be the answer.
But as an Allied player I just hope I never need transport planes at Eureka.
- Eureka.jpg (21.24 KiB) Viewed 1311 times
Re: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates
Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:50 pm
by btd64
Yaab wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:41 pm
Think I have found the answer.
You need to have ADEQUATE aviation support numbers at both bases.
Say, you want to fly 50 transport aircraft on the Ledo-Chengdu route on daily basis. You have 50 (or more) Aviation Support in Ledo. You need also to amass 50 Aviation Support in Chengdu to reduce the op losses.
I am running a tailored air group on a Ledo-Burma route and I have finally reduced my op losses to 0.
Wish this info was in the manual!
This sounds about right. Will check it out...GP
Re: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates
Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 4:10 pm
by BBfanboy
Yaab wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:41 pm
Think I have found the answer.
You need to have ADEQUATE aviation support numbers at both bases.
Say, you want to fly 50 transport aircraft on the Ledo-Chengdu route on daily basis. You have 50 (or more) Aviation Support in Ledo. You need also to amass 50 Aviation Support in Chengdu to reduce the op losses.
I am running a tailored air group on a Ledo-Burma route and I have finally reduced my op losses to 0.
Wish this info was in the manual!
Interesting! Although 50 AS for 50 aircraft is "adequate" in one way, it fails on the number of engines (2 per transport aircraft) vs AS check. But getting to zero Ops Losses says that's OK. Hmmmm.
Re: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates
Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:47 am
by Sardaukar
For extensive air supply you need:
1. Large airfield, preferably 8-9 both ends. Smaller AFs, more Ops losses.
2. Extra aviation support (remember that AF 8+ size, aviation support in base doubles, mitigating the problem quite a lot)
3. Add extra pilots and planes to Transport squadrons to help with fatigue issues.
I have miniscule Ops losses with these measures, supplying both Chengtu from Ledo and Port Moresby from Townsville etc.
Re: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates
Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:37 pm
by Yaab
BBfanboy wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 4:10 pm
Yaab wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:41 pm
Think I have found the answer.
You need to have ADEQUATE aviation support numbers at both bases.
Say, you want to fly 50 transport aircraft on the Ledo-Chengdu route on daily basis. You have 50 (or more) Aviation Support in Ledo. You need also to amass 50 Aviation Support in Chengdu to reduce the op losses.
I am running a tailored air group on a Ledo-Burma route and I have finally reduced my op losses to 0.
Wish this info was in the manual!
Interesting! Although 50 AS for 50 aircraft is "adequate" in one way, it fails on the number of engines (2 per transport aircraft) vs AS check. But getting to zero Ops Losses says that's OK. Hmmmm.
I can tell you I tailored my aviation support numbers to the number of aircraft only. Would love to double AV to match engine numbers, but AV is in short supply. As of January 15, 1942 I haven't lost a single DC-2 aircraft, flying all the time, only resting the aircraft on days with Thunderstorms or Rain weather.
Re: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates
Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2022 4:32 pm
by RangerJoe
I stated one time that I like one AS per engine, Alfred said that was not needed, just one AS per aircraft. I still like to have excess AS with my 4Es.
For transport aircraft, I try pick a unit commander with a low or very low aggression. In the 20's would be nice, he would be careful about having aircraft fly into bad weather!