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RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ?
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:16 am
by KenchiSulla
ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
From what Joel has said, it's my understanding that there are several things going on with flak and ops losses. First, the flak and ops losses over the course of a turn, or a week or a month are roughly realistic. However, the air system does not generate "sorties" 1:1 compared to historical sorties, so on a per-sortie basis, they look high. Second, there were some reporting issues that mis-reported flak or ops losses is past versions. Third, there is player action and it's easier than it should be to inadvertently fly into a lot of flak if you don't check and it's also easier than it should be to either forget to turn your GS off or to fly outside the range of your escorts and end up with an interception that causes havoc with your bombers. The sum total of this is that I know Joel, Gary and Pavel are continuing to look at saves and where they see an issue they'll adjust, but I don't think flak and ops are far off from where they should be, barring the last case.
On the last case, we plan to make some UI improvements in the future to make it easier for players to see when they have GS on, when it's out of range of escorts, to remind them at the end of the turn if they want to turn it off, to also make it easier to note potential flak issues and (hopefully, this is apparently a much tougher "feature") to make it easier for the AI to avoid inadvertent flak "traps" as well.
Regards,
- Erik
Playing 1.02.11
Hi Erik, appreciate your reaction. And I appreciate it is very difficult to accurately model the air war especially. After all, how do you measure it's impact and success? While playing the game (and manually managing the air component) I've seen:
- Tactical bombers being fairly effective to destroy, damage and disrupt soviet formations (GS role) but also being absolutely shredded (repeatable) by flak - even simple '41 rifle divisions with minimum flak support from higher HQ
Is the loss vs effect ratio realistic? If they help achieve a breakthrough maybe it is
- Level bombers rather ineffective @ damaging / destroying ground elements. Okísh disrupting. Losses perhaps acceptable when flying above 14k, but at default altitude (9k) they get shredded by whatever is shooting @ them - as I am still not sure what is......
- Issues with escort (only patrolling fighters, no escorts)
- Issues with intercepts as that does not seem to work, only in turn 1 and during GS by patrolling fighters
The game is still very enjoyable when you accept these issues (for now I am just playing AI) but I am determined to get Joel his data so the team can improve the (air) game further....
RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ?
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:24 pm
by Erik Rutins
I expect further tweaks and improvement to the air game over time based on reports and save files.
Specific to flak and ops losses, I think Joel's post here also deserves attention:
fb.asp?m=5115580
RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ?
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:27 pm
by DeletedUser44
Kench, I feel your pain.
The air war is frustrating. The AI control of the air war is even more frustrating.
Case in point - sorties. You have sorties, sort of. But not really. So just ignore them, because they really don't relate to RL sorties.
So now, without sorties as a gauge or benchmark, how are you able to know when OPS are excessive or how to avoid them? Oh wait, it relates to travel(%) and fatigue.
But you can't set AC unit limits on AC travel(%) or fatigue either. ARGH!
Go to the Commander's Report and try to pull up a list of OPS losses per battle. (hint - you can't. closest thing is ability to go to battle location on map, and inspect battles one-by-one... oh the drudgery...)
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All I can say is that I think they are aware and are working on it. And so far, they have made noticeable progress on a lot of game features. Was not too long ago there was NO UI Scaling at all.
RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ?
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:49 am
by DeletedUser1769703214
The Air War is why I will not play a game at all at the moment. Was also major contributing factor of not continuing the one I had. I will wait for the Pavel overhaul.
I would also LOVE to see setting of range setting on planes. If I want my fighter to only go 3 hexes I want to be able to set that. I don't want to have range circles where the fighter is set to only to intercept on another mission a bazillion miles away. This way my fighter is set to 3 hexes and that is it, PERIOD!!!
RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ?
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 4:30 am
by KenchiSulla
Thank you Erik, posted my views in the tech support thread
RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ?
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 5:43 am
by xhoel
+1 on the range feature.
WitE 1 did a really good job with that and AFAIK became quite liked by players. That would actually allow us to use GS during the enemy turn, since you can tell your air groups how far to engage.
RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ?
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:33 am
by DeletedUser44
In essence, you don't really have traditional AC in WiTE2 right now.
What you really have are flying cats that you try your best to herd - without any real tools to constrain them.
So, they end up going where-ever they want - and eat up all kinds of fuel / ammo / supplies in the process.
It is kind of funny in a weird, sadistic way.
RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ?
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:25 am
by heliodorus04
ORIGINAL: Sauron_II
In essence, you don't really have traditional AC in WiTE2 right now.
What you really have are flying cats that you try your best to herd - without any real tools to constrain them.
So, they end up going where-ever they want - and eat up all kinds of fuel / ammo / supplies in the process.
It is kind of funny in a weird, sadistic way.
That's signature-worthy!
I approve!
RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ?
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:01 pm
by DeletedUser1769703214
ORIGINAL: Sauron_II
In essence, you don't really have traditional AC in WiTE2 right now.
What you really have are flying cats that you try your best to herd - without any real tools to constrain them.
So, they end up going where-ever they want - and eat up all kinds of fuel / ammo / supplies in the process.
It is kind of funny in a weird, sadistic way.
Our Air war game!!!
RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ?
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:02 pm
by DeletedUser1769703214
German air war, notice the radius of effect! We think it is but it isn't
RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ?
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:05 pm
by DeletedUser1769703214
Of Course the Soviets have the best kitten Nukes!!!!
