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RE: Struggling with this Game
Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:08 am
by actrade
FWIW, when I started computer gaming back in the 1980s, the first game I fell in love with was Panzer General. Over time, I began to appreciate more complex games like WiTE, WiTP, WiTE2 and found my interests heading in that direction. Oh, I bought Panzer Corps 2 when it came out, but it didn't hold my interest for very long, not that it's a bad game, but I've changed. Think of it like women. When I was younger, looks were everything, but as I've grown and gotten older, I'd rather have a wife who is complex, is a great cook and mother. Point being, not everything is for everyone and certainly not for all time. For the OP, I understand where you are coming from and there are TONS of games out there that aren't as complex, but why come on these forums and complain about one of the few truly complex games that some of us love?
RE: Struggling with this Game
Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:15 pm
by vinnysix
Well put mate..
BTW SDG Dojo is recreating a 4 part intro vid section again very good overview so far...
RE: Struggling with this Game
Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:48 pm
by king171717
Just because you are struggling with how a game works, doesn't mean it should change for you. Once you learn how to play the game, its really straight forward. I recommend watching some youtube videos to learn how the game functions. Read some AAR's to get insight into what other players do. The Game is well worth learning, and is my all time favorite game! And I have played a lot of other games.
RE: Struggling with this Game
Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:53 pm
by GibsonPete
"If you don't like the game, make productive arguments about what needs to be changed instead of going on a rant about players that actually enjoy the game. Or simply move on."
~ xhoel +1... You cut through the nonsense and illuminate the battle ground we find ourselves operating in exceptionally well.
~ This game is not for everyone. It is not perfect. It requires commitment and a will to learn not only how something works but the reasoning it was done that way. The joy comes from mastering something. The frustration comes from learning that what you spent hours perfecting (1st Turn air war) only to discover it means little or nothing on the grand scheme of things. Then you find out Axis doctrine was to focus on the destruction of enemy airpower, when perhaps it should have planned for the destruction of infrastructure or ground support. They could not do it all. You are stuck with that decision.
~ The Strategy Gaming Dojo tutorials are useful but should be not taken as gospel. He is not an expert at this game, far from it. He is a likable Noob who is committed to learning and sharing.
RE: Struggling with this Game
Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:29 pm
by actrade
Now Pete, I see no need for calling SGD a Noob. He is very entertaining and loves the games we love. Calling him a noob merely helps prove the OP's thinly veiled point that this game is just for grognards and dinosaurs of a dying breed. I am FAR from an expert and have little inclination to invest the time/energy that some on the forums do in understanding the nuts and bolts of this game, although I do lurk and learn what I can and appreciate the passion these individuals display. That doesn't make them superior or inferior. As far as SGD is concerned, he has been a great ambassador for this game and others of this genre and has probably done more to help continue Matrix publishing these kinds of games than most if not everyone on these forums. Let's give credit where credit is due and leave the belittling comments out.
RE: Struggling with this Game
Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 2:18 pm
by Zovs
ORIGINAL: vicberg
I played WITE and WITP, for a while. I realized that WITP requires hours and days to make work because of a pretty bad UI that really doesn't manage bulk at all. Way too time consuming. I'm hoping at some point, the WITP UI is improved. I'd buy that game again.
I find WITP-AE to be very awesome and the UI is not bad at all, in fact its quite intuitive. On the plus side Matrix is updating the beta .26 beta patch to a standard 26 exe and doing some minor improvements to address a few bugs and data issues. I think time consuming is in the eyes of the beholder. One persons idea of 'wasting time' is another persons splendor of micro managing the game system to thoroughly enjoy the emersion factor. So its just a perception thing, you perceive it one way and I (and a lot of folks) another way. Just look at all the traffic in the WITP-AE threads.
ORIGINAL: vicberg
WITE1 was fun. Air war was too abstracted, but otherwise fun and relatively fast. I read through exciting AARs from players. Solid game.
It was fun when it first came out but I am so glad that the air system was thrown away, talk about a click fest, no thanks.
ORIGINAL: vicberg
I feel WITE2 is overly complex. It's for the 10% of the power gamers who post constantly on this site. The supply depot system is insane to manage directly, the UI also doesn't make it easy. The air war also way too complicated, too many clicks. Transferring Air Units should be as simple as drag and drop onto an airfield, but that's not the case. I'm guessing that's too easy. Depot management should NOT be based on priority basis, that has to be constantly adjusted, but a more simple drag and drop approach, where you set you supply lines every certain number of hexes. Want to prioritize, sure...set a depot to priority, but get rid of this 1-4 priority approach. Silly level of complexity. Or provide a decent UI to manage it.
I disagree, its only as complex as you want it to be. I also disagree its for '10% of the power gamers on this site' that is just nonsense. Its for any true war gaming affection-ado that loves detailed monster war gamers. The supply system is very easy to manage manually and the UI is very intuitive and elegant. The air war is not too complicated and has way less clicks then WITE, you just setup your AD and let them fly each turn easy peasy. Transferring air units to other bases is very simple, I use the right click method and poof your done. Depot management and Supply Priority have to be understood in context and its very easy to understand and grasp and use and the UI for it is just fine. Again just more perceptions and misunderstandings.
ORIGINAL: vicberg
All of this feels like the new version has to be more complex in order to be the new version, much like Paradox Interactive, fetishizing complexity for their core base. You've missed the 90% of the people out there who might play it (and give you money) for the 10% who want this insane, time consuming, very complex logistics game. Not a solid business choice.
Not true and I don't agree with your assumption. I have no experience with nor interest in Paradox. Again, this is just your opinion and we all have opinions.
ORIGINAL: vicberg
I have liked Matrix Games for a long time and bought many. But if the direction continues to be on the few people who post here all the time and the AI "Assists" don't really do the job, again a nod to those who want to spend days on their turns, then these games aren't for me.
The AI assist's work just fine. It does not take 'days' to do a turn. For turn 1 as the Axis I spend about 45 minutes to an hour to setup my AD and then about 3-5 hours to do my first Axis turn, from then on its about 2-4 hours per turn. Great fun and a great way to spend my time.
RE: Struggling with this Game
Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:33 pm
by GibsonPete
actrade;
You are right. Sorry about that. SGD is not a NOOB. It is just watching his 41-campaign video (first playthrough) and yelling at some of the tragic errors he made was a bit frustrating. Remember the forgotten Mountain division or the unrepaired rail in the Crimea or his merging of divisions during the winter of 41. Still, he is a persistent SOB who refuses to admit defeat and I admire that. His newest tutorials are just what is needed for the new batch of recruits.
RE: Struggling with this Game
Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:05 pm
by actrade
He is persistent. I couldn't imagine still playing my first playthrough with the release version of the game. Nor could I imagine public scrutiny of my own boneheaded moves lol.
RE: Struggling with this Game
Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:04 pm
by vinnysix
SGD is a lawyer by trade - hence his ability to communicate and teach. He has certainly helped me get into the game for which i am grateful... I will add though i am now moving past SGD and starting to really ingratiate the content on those forums from you guys to take to next level... Zovs GibsonPete Xhowl Sauran JubJub loki and the list goes on awesome stuff - i was i bit concerned about STeam chat to begin with taking away from these forums - however i now see it as a stepping stone into this forum... Once they know where the real truth is////
RE: Struggling with this Game
Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 3:48 pm
by GibsonPete
I am no Jedi. I simply pass on what I have learned. To compare me to Zovs, Loki100, HILYA, jubjub or SauronII is like comparing a high school team to a super bowl team. High praise for something I have not earned. They have knowledge, skills and abilities that are beyond mere mortals. I predict you are now a simple learner but given time you will become the master.
RE: Struggling with this Game
Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:03 pm
by gamer78
I've thought it would be similar to WITE 1 pbem but in turn 7 it seems SEC division withdrew Panzer divisions lack strength and preparation points to move forward. Leningrad scenario seems difficult, maybe just learning new game.
RE: Struggling with this Game
Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 12:33 am
by heliodorus04
ORIGINAL: overkill01
If it's not you're thing, then it's not you're thing, get over it.
In the end WitE aim's to be a realistic, history correct strategy game.
That will make it a complex game.
Being a complex game, it is to be expected that the game isn't perfect for everybody who is playing.
And they are still working to iron out problems with the game.
I think you just got you're expectations wrong.
And you wonder why I hang around and remind people of all the flaws of this game and it's over-hyped 3-man team and its regurgitation of old data in even less coherent ways.
You're the reason. Just another a-hole fan-boi. This game cost big money guy. People who are disappointed deserve their moment of feedback. What a sad group of fans you have 2by3. Are these your people, Joel?
I'll see you again. I'll see you soon.
RE: Struggling with this Game
Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 4:00 am
by overkill01
ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
And you wonder why I hang around and remind people of all......
I don't wonder at all, I don't care 1 bit about empty bitter people who trow insults because they can't cope with different opinions.
RE: Struggling with this Game
Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:29 am
by xhoel
ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
And you wonder why I hang around and remind people of all the flaws of this game and it's over-hyped 3-man team and its regurgitation of old data in even less coherent ways.
Most of the players who play this game all of the time and love it post about issues and bugs all the time because we want to see it improve. Doing so in a constructive way is the key. You lashing out on the devs is not it.
ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
You're the reason. Just another a-hole fan-boi. This game cost big money guy. People who are disappointed deserve their moment of feedback. What a sad group of fans you have 2by3.
When there is no constructive criticism being made and players are being attacked for enjoying a complex game, you bet that people will react to that. Fans are doing fine mate. We accept that a game of this size and complexity will have issues and bugs that need to be ironed out. Most players in the forums are very polite and do their best to point out issues and discuss matters of balance/realism etc.
No idea why you are being so bitter. You dont win any people over by offending and lashing out at them.
RE: Struggling with this Game
Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 2:05 pm
by GibsonPete
overkill01 and xhoel +1. Not sure what triggered heliodorus04 and personally I wish he would stick to actual issues. I will have to admit people who actually know me do not discover I am "Just another a-hole fan-boi" for at leats a week or more. His perception is indeed God like. I hope he was satisfied with his "deserve(d)... moment of feedback".
RE: Struggling with this Game
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 2:28 am
by vicberg
I stepped away for a while to let people respond.
1) I have no issue with complexity on it's own. I've played the massive wargames with maps that take up entire rooms. I like complexity
2) If you have a bad UI that increases complexity, that's bad game design. Complexity should be easy to manage. Air transfers, drag/drop. Depot management, drag drop and right click for a priority, though I disagree with entire priority concept. way too over complicated, especially with the current UI. Let the depot placement determine priority, but again that comes back to UI. Right mouse click, set priority have a color coded depot reflecting priority. UI design 101. Not in WITE2. Someone is designing a UI from 20 years ago.
3) If you have complexity and a complex UI, then you are fetishizing complexity. This is tailored for the few who are willing to wade through the UI, just like WITP. There's a few who are willing and are good at it. The majority, no way. Terrible UI and takes hours/days to manage. OR you have an architecture so old, you can't change it. Either way, it becomes for the few, the proud. Missing the entire boat and the broader market who might not post AARs against Humans but who want to play the game and have fun. That's the real market for Matrix and they are missing it. Reviews on Steam will reflect this. They could bank with a decent UI. They won't will continue as long as they don't want to improve their architecture or bring their UI into the 21st millenium. I've played and continue to play WITE. I won't play WITE2 and have removed it from Steam. Too late for me to get a refund (sad) but I have no interest in using that UI. Matrix is losing on word of mouth, and I hope they take note, because they need to create a game that appeals to many, not the few who post here. And yes, you can have both complexity that the power gamers can win with and a UI that makes it easy to do. Matrix just hasn't found the right UI designer yet. They are stuck in past design concepts.
4) Even WITH a good UI, which WITE2 isn't, then the assists should be a heck of a lot better. Not as good as a human doing it, but much better so the game is playable in single player at least. Right now, Air Assist will destroy your airforce and depot assist will insure you have little supplies as you get into Russia.
RE: Struggling with this Game
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 2:41 am
by vicberg
ORIGINAL: xhoel
ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
And you wonder why I hang around and remind people of all the flaws of this game and it's over-hyped 3-man team and its regurgitation of old data in even less coherent ways.
Most of the players who play this game all of the time and love it post about issues and bugs all the time because we want to see it improve. Doing so in a constructive way is the key. You lashing out on the devs is not it.
ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
You're the reason. Just another a-hole fan-boi. This game cost big money guy. People who are disappointed deserve their moment of feedback. What a sad group of fans you have 2by3.
When there is no constructive criticism being made and players are being attacked for enjoying a complex game, you bet that people will react to that. Fans are doing fine mate. We accept that a game of this size and complexity will have issues and bugs that need to be ironed out. Most players in the forums are very polite and do their best to point out issues and discuss matters of balance/realism etc.
No idea why you are being so bitter. You dont win any people over by offending and lashing out at them.
Ya know. WITE (not 2) had a suspect air war but a solid and easy to use UI. WITE2 has a diffcult to use UI requiring multiple pictures to show all the steps involved to actually get something done, usually 4-5-6 steps in a single pic. Complicated much? Seriously?
This discussion is constructive. You just don't want to face it. Requiring pictures showing multiple steps to get something done works for you? No it's bad UI design. Simple. Now this is probably because of an old architecture that they didn't want to upgrade. However, the fact you want to defend this as gospel means you ARE a FANBOI.
Complexity isn't the issue. An overly complex UI is bad design. Period. WITE2 has numerous terrible UI designs. Face it or not, but this is constructive.
RE: Struggling with this Game
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:10 am
by king171717
ORIGINAL: vicberg
I stepped away for a while to let people respond.
1) I have no issue with complexity on it's own. I've played the massive wargames with maps that take up entire rooms. I like complexity
2) If you have a bad UI that increases complexity, that's bad game design. Complexity should be easy to manage. Air transfers, drag/drop. Depot management, drag drop and right click for a priority, though I disagree with entire priority concept. way too over complicated, especially with the current UI. Let the depot placement determine priority, but again that comes back to UI. Right mouse click, set priority have a color coded depot reflecting priority. UI design 101. Not in WITE2. Someone is designing a UI from 20 years ago.
3) If you have complexity and a complex UI, then you are fetishizing complexity. This is tailored for the few who are willing to wade through the UI, just like WITP. There's a few who are willing and are good at it. The majority, no way. Terrible UI and takes hours/days to manage. OR you have an architecture so old, you can't change it. Either way, it becomes for the few, the proud. Missing the entire boat and the broader market who might not post AARs against Humans but who want to play the game and have fun. That's the real market for Matrix and they are missing it. Reviews on Steam will reflect this. They could bank with a decent UI. They won't will continue as long as they don't want to improve their architecture or bring their UI into the 21st millenium. I've played and continue to play WITE. I won't play WITE2 and have removed it from Steam. Too late for me to get a refund (sad) but I have no interest in using that UI. Matrix is losing on word of mouth, and I hope they take note, because they need to create a game that appeals to many, not the few who post here. And yes, you can have both complexity that the power gamers can win with and a UI that makes it easy to do. Matrix just hasn't found the right UI designer yet. They are stuck in past design concepts.
4) Even WITH a good UI, which WITE2 isn't, then the assists should be a heck of a lot better. Not as good as a human doing it, but much better so the game is playable in single player at least. Right now, Air Assist will destroy your airforce and depot assist will insure you have little supplies as you get into Russia.
You have to invest time into the game to learn how to play it. U dislike the game cuz u cant figure it out right away. This game isnt for you, move on. I love this game and the complexity it brings.
RE: Struggling with this Game
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:20 am
by vicberg
ORIGINAL: king171717
ORIGINAL: vicberg
I stepped away for a while to let people respond.
1) I have no issue with complexity on it's own. I've played the massive wargames with maps that take up entire rooms. I like complexity
2) If you have a bad UI that increases complexity, that's bad game design. Complexity should be easy to manage. Air transfers, drag/drop. Depot management, drag drop and right click for a priority, though I disagree with entire priority concept. way too over complicated, especially with the current UI. Let the depot placement determine priority, but again that comes back to UI. Right mouse click, set priority have a color coded depot reflecting priority. UI design 101. Not in WITE2. Someone is designing a UI from 20 years ago.
3) If you have complexity and a complex UI, then you are fetishizing complexity. This is tailored for the few who are willing to wade through the UI, just like WITP. There's a few who are willing and are good at it. The majority, no way. Terrible UI and takes hours/days to manage. OR you have an architecture so old, you can't change it. Either way, it becomes for the few, the proud. Missing the entire boat and the broader market who might not post AARs against Humans but who want to play the game and have fun. That's the real market for Matrix and they are missing it. Reviews on Steam will reflect this. They could bank with a decent UI. They won't will continue as long as they don't want to improve their architecture or bring their UI into the 21st millenium. I've played and continue to play WITE. I won't play WITE2 and have removed it from Steam. Too late for me to get a refund (sad) but I have no interest in using that UI. Matrix is losing on word of mouth, and I hope they take note, because they need to create a game that appeals to many, not the few who post here. And yes, you can have both complexity that the power gamers can win with and a UI that makes it easy to do. Matrix just hasn't found the right UI designer yet. They are stuck in past design concepts.
4) Even WITH a good UI, which WITE2 isn't, then the assists should be a heck of a lot better. Not as good as a human doing it, but much better so the game is playable in single player at least. Right now, Air Assist will destroy your airforce and depot assist will insure you have little supplies as you get into Russia.
You have to invest time into the game to learn how to play it. U dislike the game cuz u cant figure it out right away. This game isnt for you, move on. I love this game and the complexity it brings.
And I will be you love the multiple pictures that lay out the multiple steps you need to do to get something done. You are the master of the universe because YOU can wade through the UI and make it work. But you are missing the point entirely.
RE: Struggling with this Game
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:34 am
by king171717
ORIGINAL: vicberg
ORIGINAL: king171717
ORIGINAL: vicberg
I stepped away for a while to let people respond.
1) I have no issue with complexity on it's own. I've played the massive wargames with maps that take up entire rooms. I like complexity
2) If you have a bad UI that increases complexity, that's bad game design. Complexity should be easy to manage. Air transfers, drag/drop. Depot management, drag drop and right click for a priority, though I disagree with entire priority concept. way too over complicated, especially with the current UI. Let the depot placement determine priority, but again that comes back to UI. Right mouse click, set priority have a color coded depot reflecting priority. UI design 101. Not in WITE2. Someone is designing a UI from 20 years ago.
3) If you have complexity and a complex UI, then you are fetishizing complexity. This is tailored for the few who are willing to wade through the UI, just like WITP. There's a few who are willing and are good at it. The majority, no way. Terrible UI and takes hours/days to manage. OR you have an architecture so old, you can't change it. Either way, it becomes for the few, the proud. Missing the entire boat and the broader market who might not post AARs against Humans but who want to play the game and have fun. That's the real market for Matrix and they are missing it. Reviews on Steam will reflect this. They could bank with a decent UI. They won't will continue as long as they don't want to improve their architecture or bring their UI into the 21st millenium. I've played and continue to play WITE. I won't play WITE2 and have removed it from Steam. Too late for me to get a refund (sad) but I have no interest in using that UI. Matrix is losing on word of mouth, and I hope they take note, because they need to create a game that appeals to many, not the few who post here. And yes, you can have both complexity that the power gamers can win with and a UI that makes it easy to do. Matrix just hasn't found the right UI designer yet. They are stuck in past design concepts.
4) Even WITH a good UI, which WITE2 isn't, then the assists should be a heck of a lot better. Not as good as a human doing it, but much better so the game is playable in single player at least. Right now, Air Assist will destroy your airforce and depot assist will insure you have little supplies as you get into Russia.
You have to invest time into the game to learn how to play it. U dislike the game cuz u cant figure it out right away. This game isnt for you, move on. I love this game and the complexity it brings.
And I will be you love the multiple pictures that lay out the multiple steps you need to do to get something done. You are the master of the universe because YOU can wade through the UI and make it work. But you are missing the point entirely.
The UI makes perfect sense to me. I dont understand how you could have trouble with it. Only way I could think you dont understand the UI is because you dont understand the functions of the game.