What if...

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Not sure this is not a parody account. In one errr, weird video he says he's got 2,73 euros in the bank [:D] A screenshot below from one of his "what if" videos... ROFL

warspite1

No, I don’t think this is a parody. This appears to be the creator asking “what if” and then presenting what he appears to believe is a plausible counterfactual. ROFL indeed. [;)]

[Lobster]

OMG...[:D][:D][:D]

There aren't really anti gravity devices. People can't really fly to other solar systems in a life time or less. There are not enormous space stations orbiting the Earth housing millions of citizens. We have not yet found an intelligent alien species living on other planets. But hey, there they are every day for our entertainment. [:D][:D][:D]

The weather guy on a local station gave a ten day forcast. At the end he said, 'Don't take this seriously. We can't forcast with any accuracy beyond three days or less. This if for entertainment purposes only.' I don't see how anyone with any intelligence can take any of this seriously yet here they are. It was a post for entertainment purposes yet here we are. [8|][:D]

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Lobster
It was a post for entertainment purposes yet here we are. [8|][:D]

And you got me entertained, thanks [:D] I find his ways funny. Looks like youtube demonetised his videos, looks like he wants his viewers to send him money (sigh, only 2 euros in da bank) to buy what appears to be a ruined house.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Lobster

OMG...[:D][:D][:D]

There aren't really anti gravity devices. People can't really fly to other solar systems in a life time or less. There are not enormous space stations orbiting the Earth housing millions of citizens. We have not yet found an intelligent alien species living on other planets. But hey, there they are every day for our entertainment. [:D][:D][:D]

The weather guy on a local station gave a ten day forcast. At the end he said, 'Don't take this seriously. We can't forcast with any accuracy beyond three days or less. This if for entertainment purposes only.' I don't see how anyone with any intelligence can take any of this seriously yet here they are. It was a post for entertainment purposes yet here we are. [8|][:D]

There are anti-gravity devices. Some of them are called aircraft while others are called elevators!

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Lobster

OMG...[:D][:D][:D]

There aren't really anti gravity devices. People can't really fly to other solar systems in a life time or less. There are not enormous space stations orbiting the Earth housing millions of citizens. We have not yet found an intelligent alien species living on other planets. But hey, there they are every day for our entertainment. [:D][:D][:D]

The weather guy on a local station gave a ten day forcast. At the end he said, 'Don't take this seriously. We can't forcast with any accuracy beyond three days or less. This if for entertainment purposes only.' I don't see how anyone with any intelligence can take any of this seriously yet here they are. It was a post for entertainment purposes yet here we are. [8|][:D]

warspite1

Firstly, if people put their ideas 'out there' e.g. on You Tube, or posts on wargaming forums, then they are setting themselves up to be praised or maybe criticised or a whole range of things in between. That's the deal. You felt sufficiently entertained to post the link. Having wasted an hour of my life, I feel sufficiently embarrased for the creator that I criticised his work.

This guy presumably believes that his counterfactual is sufficiently entertaining to put on You Tube, and it's his best stab at what he believes could have followed on if a single element of WWII panned out differently e.g. Japan declaring war on the Axis, and what flowed from that.

You said "It was a post for entertainment purposes". Yes, and you and others - as you've said - were entertained and you explained why. Great no problem. I wasn't entertained and I explained why. I don't see how anyone with any knowledge of WWII can find this entertaining. It was at best a dull, uninteresting fairy tale because it gave no thought as to how the key characters in WWII behaved, thought and acted, or at worst, a poorly researched piece of claptrap. How is that entertainment? Well that depends on what each person finds entertaining. To me it's a waste of time. But you don't think so, and are clearly happy to watch this ahistorical nonsense that sides FDR with Hitler and WSC declaring war (backed by the Dominions without dissent) on the United States, and that's fine.

This is a history counterfactual that requires an ignorance of history to concoct. What has that got to do with anti-gravity devices and alien species - in other words why are you comparing a counterfactual to science fiction?? and what's with all the [:D]??

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

fairy tale

These two words. Cinderella wasn't real. Slitherine/Matrix has a boatload of counterfactual games. It's a huge money making industry. [;)]

One of my favorite counterfactual settings is Steampunk. Some of that can be awemsome looking.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Lobster

ORIGINAL: warspite1

fairy tale

These two words. Cinderella wasn't real. Slitherine/Matrix has a boatload of counterfactual games. It's a huge money making industry. [;)]

One of my favorite counterfactual settings is Steampunk. Some of that can be awemsome looking.

warspite1

Nice picture [:)]

You’ve brought up Matrix Games, and I think that brilliantly serves to underline what I’ve been saying in my earlier posts. Each of us finds different things interesting and entertaining.

Take WITE2 or WITP-AE. The player of these games will, as a rule, expect a good degree of historical accuracy incorporated into the game. A player of Matrix World In Flames or Strategic Command will be less concerned with this. There are plenty of games in between. These are all games designed for either side to win, though what win means depends on the game and what it sets out to achieve (and the lack of historical rigidity thus employed). None of the approaches taken are right or wrong; they are war games – and it’s just horses for courses in terms of what one considers an acceptable trade-off and what is fun and entertaining to play (ever seen a forum after a new game comes out, and the discussions on what should and shouldn’t be allowed [:)])?

As far as the You Tube video you posted, the situation is similar. There are historical counterfactuals, and there are fairy tales (and various examples in between). What one finds entertaining and interesting will differ from person to person. Personally, when I saw the question, “What if the US had joined the Axis?” I was immediately on notice about what I may expect. However, I was intrigued by what was being suggested and so gave the video a look.

Why should this be lumped in the fairy tale bucket? Well because, as already explained, little to no effort was actually made to understand why what happened in WWII happened. There was no effort taken to understand the personalities involved – not just the leaders, but the general populace. There was no effort made to understand the economic, diplomatic, and geo-political factors in play.

In short, there was no effort made to make this an interesting, thought-provoking piece. It was just a total and utter waste of time and effort. A poster above described it as pro-Nasi porn, but it wasn’t even that (except for perhaps Germany won the space race). Look at what Hitler and Germany settled for getting out of this ‘war’ having lost millions on the Eastern Front.

If we are to expect to believe that Hitler, Churchill and FDR could have acted as they did in the video, then where exactly is the ‘interest’? Where is the ‘entertainment’? I don’t know – but like with Matrix games, its horses for courses and as you said, your mileage may vary.

I am not sure I’ve seen anything Steam Punk (does Sucker Punch count?). If so then I enjoyed that film that seemed to have a sort of WWI-type background at one point. I also very much enjoyed Wonder Woman, set against a WWI background. But do you know what? These were fantasy films. They weren’t written by someone attempting to explore what could have happened in WWI in real life if…..

As for Cinderella, I took my little cruisers to see the live action re-make in 2015. It was a fairy tale. I loved the film every bit as much as my little girls. Make believe people in a make believe world, with make believe creatures doing make believe things – just as a fairy tale should be. But make believe people (I say again, it can’t have been Churchill declaring war on the US or FDR happily dropping Nukes on the Soviets to aid Hitler’s war with the USSR) in a real world setting with make believe economics and doing make believe things? Not so much.

But I’m pleased you got something out of it.

[Lobster]

The fairy tales we see today are not the same as they were told. They are very much washed and bleached. This one most of all it seems.
http://thetruthaboutstorys.weebly.com/t ... eauty.html

[warspite1]

Indeed not. But the original versions probably wouldn’t make for a Disney classic [;)]

[RangerJoe]

I bring you Cinderella . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i28UEoLXVFQ

[Curtis Lemay]

I think it might be made plausible with a little work. Just change the US administration to something more right-wing: Suppose Roosevelt chose to honor the 2-term limit and a Republican was in office on December 7th. Elected by Irish, German, and Italian Americans dissatisfied with Roosevelt's foreign policy, along with the usual rich base that will see the USSR as a bigger threat than Germany, that administration, upon being attacked by an Allied Power, could see itself as part of the Axis alliance - and act accordingly.

[RangerJoe]

I don't think that there would be enough Irish, German, and Italian Americans who would vote that would have made much of a difference back then.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I don't think that there would be enough Irish, German, and Italian Americans who would vote that would have made much of a difference back then.

Total German, Italian, and Irish Americans would exceed British Americans.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I don't think that there would be enough Irish, German, and Italian Americans who would vote that would have made much of a difference back then.

Total German, Italian, and Irish Americans would exceed British Americans.

Maybe but there still would not be that many that could completely change the voting . . .

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I don't think that there would be enough Irish, German, and Italian Americans who would vote that would have made much of a difference back then.

Total German, Italian, and Irish Americans would exceed British Americans.

Maybe but there still would not be that many that could completely change the voting . . .

Again, I'm assuming Roosevelt doesn't run for a third term - honoring the 2-term limit legacy. So...who knows what the Democrats put up. A more right-wing result is possible. Just take that as an assumption.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay



Total German, Italian, and Irish Americans would exceed British Americans.

Maybe but there still would not be that many that could completely change the voting . . .

Again, I'm assuming Roosevelt doesn't run for a third term - honoring the 2-term limit legacy. So...who knows what the Democrats put up. A more right-wing result is possible. Just take that as an assumption.

What do you mean by "who knows what the Democrats put up?" Don't you mean "who knows whom the Democrats put up?"

You are also assuming a lot with Rooseveldt not running for a third term.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe




Maybe but there still would not be that many that could completely change the voting . . .

Again, I'm assuming Roosevelt doesn't run for a third term - honoring the 2-term limit legacy. So...who knows what the Democrats put up. A more right-wing result is possible. Just take that as an assumption.

What do you mean by "who knows what the Democrats put up?" Don't you mean "who knows whom the Democrats put up?"

You are also assuming a lot with Rooseveldt not running for a third term.

Not that big an assumption, since it had been honored for more than 150 years. Roosevelt not honoring it was the outlier.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay



Again, I'm assuming Roosevelt doesn't run for a third term - honoring the 2-term limit legacy. So...who knows what the Democrats put up. A more right-wing result is possible. Just take that as an assumption.

What do you mean by "who knows what the Democrats put up?" Don't you mean "who knows whom the Democrats put up?"

You are also assuming a lot with Rooseveldt not running for a third term.

Not that big an assumption, since it had been honored for more than 150 years. Roosevelt not honoring it was the outlier.

Grant tried for a third term and so did Teddy . . .

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe




What do you mean by "who knows what the Democrats put up?" Don't you mean "who knows whom the Democrats put up?"

You are also assuming a lot with Rooseveldt not running for a third term.

Not that big an assumption, since it had been honored for more than 150 years. Roosevelt not honoring it was the outlier.

Grant tried for a third term and so did Teddy . . .

Grant didn't publicly run for a third term - and thereby didn't get it.

Teddy hadn't been elected twice. He finished McKinley's term and was elected once. So, another term would have been his second election.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay



Not that big an assumption, since it had been honored for more than 150 years. Roosevelt not honoring it was the outlier.

Grant tried for a third term and so did Teddy . . .

Grant didn't publicly run for a third term - and thereby didn't get it.

Teddy hadn't been elected twice. He finished McKinley's term and was elected once. So, another term would have been his second election.

Grant lost the Republican convention to Garfield who then chose someone as a running mate who had never been elected to office. That is how Chester Arthur became the President of the United States since President Garfield died in office. I would state that if someone came that close to winning the Republican convention - it was a very long one with many votes - then that person publicly ran for the Presidency of the United States.

Teddy became President of the United States a little over 6 months on the job as Vice President. So he had most of the term to finish and then ran for reelection. Most people would consider that two terms.